I was looking at the 3, however don't like the fact it has no gauge cluster. I was very interested but not sure yet until I drive one see how it feels on the road.

model 3 dashboard - head on view (resized).jpg

Certainly looks good and I think people that are into Tesla cars will be all over this. The $7500 rebate is limited to just 200K total cars (all models S, X, and 3). So if you are not one of the first 6 months this will be phased out and you will pay the full list price.

Was reading another thread:

--- that most reservation holders are preparing to pay between $45,000 and $55,000, which makes sense since the bare Model 3 or nearly bare Model 3 are very rare options among the reservation holders surveyed. Most of them are looking for a battery pack upgrade from the base model, which is expected to offer 215+ miles of range, to bigger packs that could allow up to 300 miles of range.---

I just put a deposit, looking at my delivery window will be in 2019 and by then the rebates will have been used up (unless these get extended for some reason). I don't really believe in the rebates because it's giving our tax dollars for other people to buy expensive cars. But that said if it was offered to me, I would rather have the rebate than not. I am not hating on people who take the rebate but I think it's a dumb concept.

I don't know if I will buy but 2019 gives me a lot of time and it's a fully refundable deposit.

Just saying put my deposit today and the timeframe they told me was 2019 (so 2 years from now) and I will have the opportunity to see if I like it or if not can get something else. I am not heavily into the idea of EV for the sake of being an EV. But with my daily commute being 40-50 miles round trip and I usually fill up gas once a week so everyday trips will be ok but long trips would not be ideal, but my wife has a SUV so we'd use that like usual.

I like the technology, the updates to the software and the cutting edge safety etc..

It's more Accord/Camry than E-Class MB (luxury). I know the E-Class is like a $55-65K and the Tesla 3 is more like $40-55K, so it's not a straight comparison. But give away the ability to go anywhere like you can with a ICE. I know there are supercharging stations but that does not take away from the fact that an EV is still more inconvenient for a long trip.

Edit: I only brought up E-Class because it also has a lot of the autonomous driving features like the Tesla.

Been thinking about an E-Class because it's more luxurious but with similar self driving features. However knowing German luxury cars cost an arm and a leg for maintenance. Had two Bimmers and will never buy a BMW ever because of that.

I only wish Tesla was more luxurious interior and I'd prefer a gauge cluster in front of steering wheel.

The Tesla S gets big demerits for interior too it's not up to $99k car standards

E-Class IMG_3257 (resized).JPGIMG_3258 (resized).JPG

Tesla 3

IMG_3259 (resized).JPG

I know it's unfair to compare E class with Model 3 but have seen Tesla S compared to S Class and the said the Tesla S drives great but interior is just not there for a $100k sedan.

I've been driven in a S Class sedan, damn thing is a mini limo.

I think you need to pay $550 for the faster home charging cables plus installation.

Totally false comparison, the two phones have different functionality, whereas the MB luxury car can do same/similar things as the Tesla just looks better.

If you guys want to say the MB doesn't look better that's fine but don't pretend like it's a 2007 flip phone.

More like a Rolex vs a Casio they both tell time but one is more luxurious.

Right now Tesla has the market to itself but when MB starts to make same type EV with real interior it will look like Stern vs JJP.

Before you guys jump on me and say the Tesla is just as nice interior as a MB

Please view above video and this one too. The Tesla has fit and finish in places that look like a 2000 Tercel, see center area which is just atrocious.

A lot lot of people buying are already EV deciples, meaning Tessa already has your vote. It's people like me who is agnostic about ICE or EV. Honestly I can give a hang about EV, I am only considering because has good performance, good safety, good technology etc.. I'm buying the usability ad ability not buying because it's an EV. Looks and luxury has to factor into *my* decision.

IOW if there is an ICE car that stops and goes and is safe and has great technology but looks *way better* I'll just as soon buy that because EV does have some downsides (weight etc).

I'll buy is 300+ Mile and if Tesla, if the only made the 200 mile version I may not buy it at all.

Trouble is what happens if you get to a charging station and they are occupied which could happen with so many more cars being sold by Tesla? If you need 30+ minutes of charging and what if you are in a que and need to wait another 20 minutes on top of that? I go bonkers when I need to wait 5 minutes to fill with gas so likely this will not be a long range car for me.

A flip phone does not surf the internet, can not be used for pay at stores like Apple Pay, can not take high resolution video, can not play advanced games can not watch streaming movies or be used like an iPod.

Both Tesla and MB are *cars* first and foremost both can have autonomous driving, both can have heated seats etc.

Just because Tesla has a firmware update does not make it anything more than a car. It's not like it can become a submarine for example.

If you want to defend Tesla fine but technology is not so far ahead anymore (example automatous driving) and if MB comes up with a better algorithm for its auto driving who's to say that can't be upgraded?

Just because Tesla can do firmware upgrades does that makes it a smartphone and all other cars are flip phones circa 2007. My example Rolex vs Casio is much more apt because they both tell time mutbthe casio can maybe also be a TV remote and get firmware updates while the Rolex doesn't. The Rolex is not that better at telling time than a Casio it's just more luxurious.

MB has technology Tesla doesn't have such as audio safety where if an impending crash is detected the speakers emit a pink noise that counteracts the high decibels of a crash to prevent hearing loss.

You all think you will still get the full rebate? That's a bad thing because I applied late but I don't need a car for a while, however if I knew was getting rebate I'd have registered sooner but I think I'm going to get AWD so that would have pushed me to later in 2018.

I wonder what the loss of rebates will have on Tesla.

Here's a good overview, fits right with the BMW 3-Series and MB C-class. I'm impressed with the weight as the Model S (I thought) was quite heavy whereas the 3 is just a couple hundred lbs heavier than the BMW.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-31/driving-tesla-s-model-3-changes-everything

You might say you are not an EV decipel but you are. What do you think an EV decipel is? Do you think you think EV deciple is someone who makes goes to rallies against big oil and won't even go into a gas station to buy a lottery ticket because they hate big oil and climate change. I think those guys are off the reservation, tinfoil hats and whatnot but that is not the only people who are what I call EV deciples, there are others who just love EV cars and think they are the best thing ever.

I am not saying you are wrong, you have your own beliefs and what you like but you are a very small minority.

EV cars are not the best things on the road, if you would gander at the comparison test of the S-Class and the Tesla it shows what some car guys think and these guys drive hundreds of cars every year.

EV cars need to be paid for (in part) by government give aways. In other words left to market forces (not $7500 tax credits) then people would never buy one. The government has to pay people to consider them, or else the car maker has to sell at huge losses to get them off the lot. In fact I believe Tesla is selling cars at huge losses (the S and X) because if they priced them where they can make a profit like MB does probable 20% profit on every car then not enough people would buy.

I love the Tesla S, I have 6 co-workers who own them and one owns aa X. But they all got $7500 off sticker. They are fantastic cars.

this is my point.

You are not a car guy, you probably like A-B transportation with the least drama and heck the Leaf is probably an acceptable transportation pod. But it's not the car for most people. If it were so good why are you able to buy them second hand for a song? I see 3 year old Leaf cars for $6000. Let's face it, they are not worth much yet you say it (the Leaf) is the best driving experience you've ever had.

I am not saying your opinion is wrong just that most people would rather not drive a car that starts out with a range equal to an ICE car's range when the gas warning light comes on.

I'm sure you like it, but other people love light weight cars with handling they can attack a back road and maybe like to shift gears (etc..) I am not saying everyone but for everyone who loves a Leaf there is as many who would rather have a $6000 Miata even thought it's not an ideal transportation pod. They love driving character and other aspects than just a quite ride that can go from one place to another without getting you wet.

I drove S2000 and BMW M3 in fact had the M3 at the same time as Tesla S was shipping, I could have gone with the Tesla S it would have been not much more money but in fact *I* love the ICE car and think it has some advantages (might be character or whatever) but ICE cars are not prehistoric dinosaurs like some EV people like to think.

didn't want to make too long a post so this is part 2.

I have been looking into the Model 3 and really love it for a number of reasons.

There is the base car (no options) which is $35K less range and there is the big battery with lots of options and self driving or semi automatous and luxury etc.. that is $55K (or more)

So it's not as if you can spend $35K and you get the same car as someone who spends $55K. Much like you can get a Tesla S for $79K or $150K same basic car but a big gap due to features and performance.

The base does not have all the self driving aids.

I was looking at cars in the size and price the closest one is the BMW 3 which is the same size, same interior room (or similar) similar weight has a 4cylinder turbo and is around the same quickness and costs around the same maybe the BMW is a few thousand more.

This doesn't factor in the big rebate of $7500 which makes the Tesla 3 stand out in that you get similar car but Uncle Sam pays you money to buy it.

Once the subsidy goes away (And by then BMW will be able to produce an EV with their own $7500 subsidy the tables will be turned). But that's not today. Today the Tesla 3 is better and in fact you can get a $45K Tesla then factor in the rebate would be the same price as a lower optioned BMW.

I was looking at was self driving or semi automatous driving and the base Tesla buyers the Joe 6-pack that just wants a cheap car will likely be not getting all the bells and whistles. Tesla is charging $1K extra for a different paint color and $5-9K for the driving aids and the semi automatous self driving aids and $5K for luxury items and I know a lot of folks are probably not going to spend money to get a full tilt Tesla 3 (which can exceed $55K), that's a whole different zip code than the $35K car.

MB E-class probably has the closest to Tesla in semi automatous driving and from what I've read it's getting there but it's really not that good. The new version that is being worked on for release is better but not out yet.

But the good thing about Tesla is that they will upgrade you. So while their system is the best now, maybe in 2 years MB system will be as good or better, but the point is in 2 years Tesla system will be better too and it will be upgraded.

So if you are interested in Semi automatous function, right now the E-Class is not as good and that is a much more expensive car anyway and with a worse auto pilot. So the BMW 3 series while it compares to the base Tesla 3 in many ways it does not come close to the upper level cars due to the auto pilot function.

I think auto pilot is Tesla's ace in the hole. I think people like me can afford to buy anything. I can buy a MB E-class with every option but it still won't have as good auto pilot as the Tesla, I see the great value in the Tesla 3 (even if the rebate is phased out) I am opting for the big battery, twin engine with luxury package and the auto pilot.

I like the technology and with the larger battery and the twin engine the car will be a beast and can stand against the best luxury cars in it's size.

But I am not one who really cares about buying a EV car because it saves the polar bears. I am buying because it's a tour de force in technology, it looks great and has great safety and performance and self driving down the road and a decent price. Plus less to break and need repaired on the Tesla vs a luxury ICE car.

pump the brakes dude. I think your rose colored glasses are making you light headed.

Tesla (total in all it's years of existence) has sold less than 150K cars worldwide (can you dig it?) but now you claim that Tesla came from nowhere and started outselling BM immediately.

(fake news alert!) Please cite sources.

MB sold 2.2 MILLION cars last year.

MB sold over 100K S-Class cars last year and without the help of $7500 rebate checks (and without losing money on every car it sells like Tesla does).

here are some real fact (not fake news)
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/070116/tesla-losing-money-each-time-it-sells-car-tsla.asp

Under generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP), Tesla loses $19,059 for each Model S unit it sells. Promises to deliver 100,000 vehicles by year-end 2015 fell short as Tesla sold just over 50,000 cars.

What part of the above quote leads you to believe Tesla started outselling MB and MBW immediately? MB has sold more S-Class in 18 months (just S-class) than Tesla has sold in 6+ years.

Don't tell me "well in US" because you need to tell me how it's fair for Tesla to give $7500 tax dollars to rich people who are buying $100K cars yet MB doesn't have that same luxury. And tell me what happens when the $7500 tax rebate is phased out. I know 7-8 people who one the Tesla S/X and they all bought (mainly or in part because they got a fat rebate check) one is a polar bear lover but the other just bought because Tesla is selling at a discount compared to a S-Class.

I've been in both and MB S-Class is a *true luxury car* with soft leather and wood. Tesla doesn't use real leather anymore it's some type of synthetic material and mostly plastic everywhere.

I would put Tesla luxury on par with the best Toyota say an Avalon.

Once MB (etc..) start to produce EV they will be just as good there is not much to it, just batteries and an electric engine plus software. Surely you don't think Tesla is the only company capable of making batteries and a simple electric motor? Thats like saying Apple is the only company that is capable of building a smartphone.

THAT is exactly what you are saying. If you say *only* Tesla can build an EV thats the same as saying *only* Apple can build a smart phone or like saying Perelli is the *only* company that can build a tire or IBM is the *only* company that can build a PC.

To borrow a word from Tesla that's ludicrous.

It's like Lavar Ball saying he can beat MJ in a 1 on 1 game. It's funny to hear people that are so delusional

plus MB will be getting $7500 rebates when Tesla is getting none so the table will be turned.

MB simply does not have to sell EV, they sell 2M + cars already so any EV will be fighting for table scraps EV sales are not great yet. Once people stop buying ICE cars we can talk. I'm not going to hold my breath, the only way EV will overtake ICE cars is if the governments mandate it such as the case when the polar bear lovers win.

I'm just debating and presenting facts, I think Tesla S is very fast and it drives well and I'll probably buy a 3 but I am not so much drunk in love with EV's to say they are better than normal cars.

I'm down for Tesla, likely get a Tesla 3 and the range is very key, I just did a 4 hr trip 230 miles in our SUV ICE. I'm far more likely to do that trip with a 300+ mile range car than a 215 mile car.

Even if I could get a Tesla supercharger on the way, I don't need/want to stop for 25-35 minutes recharge, I just want to get done.

So 300+ miles is not a must have but great to have.

I love the acceleration of Tesla but I'm at the point where I'm also interested in a 911 Porsche which is not cheap, it's every bit what any Tesla S costs but for road feel, engagement and fun sporty drive not 0-60 acceleration which the Tesla S wins hands down.

Here's a nice video

@all

I am not against EV cars. But am also not against ICE cars, I own stock in big oil so I don't get anything out of seeing the end of gas/oil cars.

I was just trying to start a debate or discussion.

Currently Tesla is top dog. But Audi, MB (etc..) other car companies are in a business to sell cars and make money. I showed that MB sold over 2 million last year and Audi/WV group probably sold 15 million. So they don't need to go EV now, they can and they will when they have to.

Above someone posted about a Croatia car company, it was started in a garage as a hobby.

Let that sink in.

I'm not talking a world leader like Japan, Germany, Italy, USA but Croatia. If they can do something in the EV segment than a real car company like Audi or Toyota (etc.) can do it like nothing. It's just that today Toyota, Audi etc.. make more money on ICE cars. It's shown Chevy even Tesla can attest that it costs a lot of money when you are just selling 5K or 25k cars a year as opposed to MB which sells 100K S-Class cars so they can divide the development over 1 million cars over the lifetime run.

With Tesla 3 finally Tesla will be able to divide the cost over one million plus cars. So far no one has been doing that but if government say you can't sell any ICE cars or put big tariffs on ICE cars then Audi and MB and GM won't just close shop they will make EV cars.

Again a small company in Croatia can make an EV, Tesla which hasn't made a car be or was able to make the model S so it's not impossible at all.

Plus there is a thing called reverse engineering so is a company wanted to make a silicon chip they could do it without paying Intel it costs a lot of money but it can be done. If a company wants to put LEDs in their headlights they can do it. If they want to put a 15 inch center screen they can do it.

I was watching a lot of videos about Tesla no cup holders in the back seat, no light for the vanity mirrors. I'm not saying they are bad cars but just appalling what they forgot to do. And people don't care because they are the only game in town. If the big autos see they can make more money on EV cars than ICE cars they will do so.

It's like a company makes ice cream and that's all they make and they make a good profit. Now another company comes along and makes ice cream sandwiches (Tesla) and they make good profits. That doesn't mean the first company is out of business they just haven't invested in ice cream sandwiches yet. If the governments of the world all the sudden said ice cream is illegal but ice cream sandwiches are fine, the first company can easily switch over to ice cream sandwiches.

Again a small company which started as a hobby in a garage in Croatia is making EV cars. If MB wanted to they could buy the whole company without blinking.

Again I'm not anti Tesla I think they make great cars, I'm down for the 3.

However today if you gave me a choice Tesla S or Porsche 911 I'd pick the 911 all day. I don't mean Tesla S is bad but just that it's not the car everyone on the planet wants and for $80-$150K there are a lot of nice cars to look at. If I was a card carrying EV person I'd already own one or two Tesla cars.

I'm not a card carrying EV lover. I think some EV's are too expensive like the Model X ($90K) compared to Honda Odyssey or Pilot ($40k) it's not even close. You'd have to be in love with the Model X to spend that kind of money because you'll never recoup the savings on gas and oil changes over 10-20 years.

http://jalopnik.com/how-a-tiny-croatian-electric-hypercar-company-could-cha-1765523769

When startup Croatian electric car company Rimac displayed its first prototype it had 8 employees...

You think it's impossible for VW/Audi, MB, Toyota etc. with hundreds of thousands of engineers to make an EV?

IMG_3267 (resized).png

Don't let facts get in the way of your Tesla love.

Tesla doesn't have as much cash as other car companies they need to raise more capital to continue while GM for one has $24B cash on the books.

I mean please, if you're going over-love Tesla please provide your facts. Tesla is raising $1.5B in junk bonds to fund their cash burn.

Ford has $27B cash and another $10B available unused credit as of February

https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/02/12/youll-be-surprised-at-the-size-of-ford-motor-compa.aspx

I'm providing facts all I'm hearing is no one else can make a battery :roll eyes:

You said Tesla has more money than other car companies when the exact opposite is true.

I'll no longer post if all you guys want to do is post outrageous lies about Tesla.

Tesla only does EV so they're a big deal for EV only buyers but 99.9% of the people don't really care about EV.

IMG_0017 (resized).PNG

Monday it will be issue bonds to raise $1.5 billion.

After the announcement, Standard & Poor's gave the bonds a B- rating, putting them in the high-risk junk bond category.

I'm sorry, I think I took the quote the wrong way.

I thought you were saying Tesla has as much cash as *they do* (meaning the other major players which they clearly don't) but (I think now) you meant Tesla has as much cash as they do (meaning Tesla), but still Tesla is on thin ice as evidence by their junk bond rating.

Porsche is working on an EV itself and will have a charging rate twice as quick as Tesla supercharger 15 minutes for 80% charge.

Porsche plans on having 50% of it's cars be EV by 2023

The Mission E is to have “over 310 miles of range” (500 km) on a single charge, but being based in Germany, Porsche is likely talking about the New European Driving Cycle (NEDC), which is much more forgiving than the EPA rating and doesn’t really reflect real-world range. It’s should still have a more than decent range around 250 miles.

Porsche is also aiming for a 0 to 60 mph acceleration in 3.5 seconds. The automaker also claims that the Mission E will be equipped with a 800-volt charging system able to charge up to 80% in about 15 minutes.

Good discussions, Tesla is way ahead in making great EV cars but maybe not up to luxury car standards particularly the interiors. I've driven the Tesla S and it's interior is fine nothing gross it's the same quality as a Camry. I'm not saying a Camry is bad/horrible but there is a vast degree between a Camry and a Bentley.

I was watching some videos I posted above and some other videos, saying Tesla is new at building cars and you can tell in the interiors. The center area of the S looks like it might be from a pickup truck (I mean just an empty area like a weathertec mat) even the optional center storage looks like it comes form Walmart auto department. No vanity mirror lights no cup holders in the rear seat area? I mean this is basic stuff.

Tesla will begin to make much better materials interiors befitting a $150K car. Likely Tesla 3 is fine because it's after the Accord/Camry crowd so it's not expecting lambs wool carpet and all. But there is definitely a gradient to leather and quality. I mean you can buy a leather couch for $1K or one for $10K. Tesla likely has the hard stuff down (if this was pinball I'd mean the basic parts and software and systems but they need to make the interior better (imo).

I know some don't like 'dead animals' but the cows are going to be dead either way, if all car companies stopped using real leather, cows would still be dead. They are not like mink where they are only raised for their fur.

I'm betting that Tesla will license out their system to other companies, they could make big money but not have to build millions of cars much like Microsoft sells their OS but doesn't actually build all the computers in the world. I mean BMW sells their engines to other companies to build cars usually a small t can't just build a new engine out of thin air. Tesla could sell their secret sauce or other companies can simply buy a Tesla and see how it's done. The big thing is still the recharging networks.

Tesla can charge money for the supercharges as well.

Also while Tesla self driving is currently the best, they won't be the only, Apple or Google can do same and they can work with other car companies or those car companies can do it in house. So imo Tesla should consider licensing those features as well in that if Tesla doesn't sell it the other guys will make it in house or buy stuff from Google.

I think Google doesn't want to be a huge car manufacturer but bet they'd like to be a standard or sell to other car makers if they can make good money. This stuff isn't cheap it's like $9000 for all the extra self driving stuff on Telsa so there is quite good money to be made.

Reason I think oil companies either are here to stay. They still are used primarily for airline industry and that is a growing area. I read that China is growing like mad in this area. Plus there are like 2 Billion ICE cars on the road in the world and not to mention lawn mowers etc.. so even if electric starts to take over it's not like no one will have gas powered cars any more.

I read all the time like 95% of this car or that car is still on the road, so they are not all the sudden going to scrap 2 Billion cars.

Likely oil industry will contract and still sell and make profits. Heck the cigarette industry is doing that they sell less and less each year but they still make profit. What they do and oil companies do and many mature companies do is buy back their stocks. Heck IBM has bought back like 70% of its shares. So is Exxon sells less gas each year, they don't just go,out of business as people will still drive gas cars.

When I said *I* have oil stock that's not like I said I only own oil stocks if anyone has any S&P500 index or many other ETFs MF they will own a good bit of oil company stocks.

They were in the past saying the world would run out of oil but now they are saying we have too much. Plus if we do run low prices will go up and if we start to have too low prices companies will go out of business but not all. The big guys will buy the little guys and they will conspire to lower output and bring prices up. Look at Standard Oil back in the day. I'm not saying they will be a monopoly like that but if small companies start to fold up big fish will buy them for a song.

Oil is also used for more than just ICE cars, like I said airlines don't run on batteries, and there whole petrochemicals and the electric grid. If more EV cars (likely) more oil and gas and coal will be used to make electricity.

In short, if you think the petroleum industry is going out of business in the next 20+ years, I don't think so. And if it was, there would be news known to investment people more so than you or me. In other words if Exxon, Shell, BP etc..we're going out of business soon they'd be priced accordingly instead of PE 18 or whatever they sell for now.

One big advantage gas cars have is range and being able to drive long distances and fill up in 4 minutes for another 400 miles.

My friend drove his Tesla from D.C. to Florida so it's not impossible just takes a medium bit longer, but when he drove from D.C. to Wyoming he took his pick up truck because he wanted to get there with some pace rather than spending hours recharging plus less charging stations in the middle of nowhere.

Also cars can still be cheaper than EV you can get a cheap new car for $14K or better yet less than $1000. My neighbor bought my 9 year old Escort for $900 because because we needed a safer car with more room when we had kids but my neighbor just wanted a little car for cheap. He was able to drive that car another 7 years without any major maintenance cost. Just tires and batteries, wiper blades whatever. Some people who will find a cheap used ICE car easier to swallow especially if they want more range than the cheap EV cars like the a Leaf.

seriously doubt Tesla will be bankrupt, but they might find it profitable to sell their technology to other companies as well as their supercharging network.

Additionally to my Big Oil send off, they are likely to add electrical charging infrastructure to existing gas stations to transition to selling power for profit. I already see some electrical charging for pay at some gas stations.

My 3 would be dual engine, larger battery and most of the bells and whistles.

But that's the beauty you could take a loaded 3 or a base 3 depending on your desired car and what you want to spend.

Tesla probably wants people to debate the cheapest S can get now or a loaded 3 have to wait plus likely miss the tax credit if you're a year out.

I happen not to need a car so I'm fine waiting 18 months.

is there a link without subscription?

Regarding the price of the Tesla 3

$35K (-7500) is $27,500 which is like a midrange Accord. That is very cheap, I don't blame Tesla if they would put the big ticket people in front of the small ticket people.

I mean if Tesla said the first 200K cars will be the big battery + luxury package $49K.

It's better for Tesla to make the loaded cars than the stripped cars especially if they have a limited capacity and can only make x many cars a month it'd be better for them to sell only the loaded versions.

Weird

I can see it on my phone but not on computer, will check it out.

That article is just an opinion piece, (one persons opinion) saying that ICE engines are done for because EV will replace them. People have been saying that printed books are done too because of digital books but it's not happening or happening very slowly.

There are 1Billion cars in the word mostly ICE and batteries require rare earth like lithium and cobalt.

I think unless the ICE cars are phased out by the government, I don't believe that in the near future the majority of cars will be EV cars.

Most projections show EV will surge is numbers but this does not mean death of ICE cars.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.greentechmedia.com/amp/article/everyone-is-revising-electric-vehicle-forecasts-upward

This article forecasts EV will make up 33% of cars on the road in 2040.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/forecasts/

France and UK to stop selling new ICE cars by 2040 they're not banning ICE cars just new car sales.

If the average car age is the same as America 10 years it'll take ~ 10 years to get to ~50% of the ICE cars off the road. That's also not in effect for another 22 years.

The US has yet to mandate EV sales.

Lithium

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.greentechmedia.com/amp/article/is-there-enough-lithium-to-maintain-the-growth-of-the-lithium-ion-battery-m

That article says 17 year reserves in a heavy EV usage scenario. But that's just proven reserves sure there is much more not yet found.

Of course we could always find more lithium as we have with oil.

Cobalt might be a choke point for Tesla and other EV cars

--
64% of cobalt supply comes from a single location: the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

Apple has already begun to crack down on these horrible conditions and unethical Congo mines that are using children.--

--

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-electric-car-boom-spurs-investor-scramble-for-cobalt-2017-2

--

Global total demand for cobalt last year was around 100,000 tonnes, of which around half was used in batteries to power electric cars, as well as mobile phones, laptops, digital cameras, and cordless drills.

"In terms of overall demand, EVs (electric vehicles) only consumed around 6.5% of refined cobalt in 2016. This will increase to 16.9% in 2021 helping lift demand to nearly 130,000 tonnes," CRU senior consultant Edward Spencer said.

"We expect a deficit in the region of 900 tonnes this year. However, a far larger deficit could open quickly if mine and refinery capacity growth fails to keep pace."

Analysts at Macquarie Research expect deficits of 885 tonnes next year, 3,205 in 2019, and 5,340 in 2020.

"Cobalt has limited new supply projects coming through. Meanwhile refined output in key supply countries such as Australia, Russia and Zambia are well down on levels seen a decade ago," Macquarie analyst Colin Hamilton said.

"The global cobalt market is becoming ever more dependent on supply from the Democratic Republic of Congo, where geopolitical risk is again rising...

Can't wait until they're reviewed in C&D etc..

I'm impressed the weight of the 3 is less than I expected.

I think if you get the total glass roof that is in place of a sunroof. IOW if you get the full glass roof it has no opening (fine by me because I rarely use a sunroof and they're a potential for leaks and squeaks).

The S lowest will start at $70k but can go up to $150k for the bomb all power. X starts at $79k.

However our government gives away $7500 tax credit plus some states give something too.

not a full road test but driving impression from Motor Trend with high resolution photos.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2018/exclusive-tesla-model-3-first-drive-review/

Looks good, except the rear trunk opening is kind of stubby. I suspect this is more Civic size than Accord. That's not a criticism just an observation having owned a BMW 3-Series that's the perfect size for a commuter car. Not sure about if you have it as a family car (prefer the Tesla S size there).

Almost looks like it should be hatchback made into a trunk instead
IMG_3285 (resized).PNG

interior video shown in this link

http://www.motortrend.com/news/video-exclusive-a-closer-look-at-the-tesla-model-3s-interior/

Tesla is now offering some large discounts on dealer stock up to $30k off some cars. Also has cut prices on some configurations.

Seems as if they need to make a certain sales by end of September

http://insideevs.com/in-attempt-to-boost-sales-tesla-offers-30000-discount-0-99-apr/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2017/09/01/tesla-offers-showroom-discounts-lower-interest-rates-boost-sales/amp/

Tesla S vs Leaf is like horse vs a goat.

yep this is pretty much the case with any mass produced car, plus you have $7500 tax credit to figure about that the re-sale buyer doesn't get so pretty much whatever depreciation is normal -$7500. Not sure why you are surprised about this. Don't see how you think Tesla would be any different than MB or BMW or Cadillac etc.

The Model S has a lot more going for it than any prior (to the the new Bolt) EV.
Acceleration
Range
Super charger network
Style
Prestige
Rear or AWD
Superior handleling

the 2018 Honda Civic and 2018 Toyota Corolla look very interesting and comparable to the Mercedes E-Class - except for acceleration.

One person who didn't have his hands on the wheel despite being warned 25 times by the car. (new software on the Tesla, will now slow down and stop if the driver does not follow protocol) so the current self driving function is not the same. You are arguing that the self driving feature is dangerous due to one data point and the cause that has been corrected. I'm sure you have dozens or hundreds of other deaths associated with the Tesla auto pilot to sho why it is *quite dangerous*. Also this is the same as saying when an airplane crashes because of faulty autopilot (combined with the crew mistakes) therefore all airplane with autopilot is unsafe. In fact I'd bet planes are safer because of all the automated features. (And so is a Tesla which gains the highest possible safety scores).

Tesla may go bankrupt or need to restructure but that is not a sure thing by any means. Tesla has lots of orders for the 3, the Tesla S already outsells all full size luxury car in the US handily.

I agree that once the $7500 tax credit is phased out they will need to adapt to a level playing field (or even a disadvantaged position respecting to other car companies like Porsche).

If Tesla does go bankrupt that might be from Solar City deal, or spending too much on R&D etc..

A lot of car companies have gone bankrupt or near bankrupt including Nissan, GM, Chrysler.

Apple almost went under in 1997, Marvel (comics) 1996.

here is a MB S-Class which sold for $100K+ new

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-2013-Mercedes-Benz-S-Class-c23518#listing=179606338_isFeatured

2013 Mercedes-Benz S-Class S 550 4MATIC - $36,400

what the heck it's depreciated? How is that possible?

It's not just MB or Tesla even Porsche 911s depreciate like 30-60% in 2-6 years

I mean just about every car, not every car will depreciate the same but news flash buying a new car will be worth less when you sell it.

Hey what the heck?

I leased a car and it cost me money? :crazy:

I rented a car and it cost me money? :crazy:

I bought a car and it cost me money? :crazy:

That's the Model X minivan / SUV

I was asked by another pinsider if it'll hold a pinball machine, I'm not sure but I assume so with the middle and rear seats folded.

You got to pay to play.

If you were playing poker and you only bring $100 to the table you think that you should get the same maximum reward as someone who brings $150 to the table? This is the whole entitlement generation in a nutshell.

This happens all the time, Porsche sells an engine upgrade that costs $12K but is only a software upgrade.

My first Windows PC, Intel CPU, I could only afford a chip *without* the math co-proccesor, the chip was exactly the same as the more expensive version the same chip except Intel xxx-ed out the math co-proccesor. In other words they already made the chip and actually had to xxx out a part of the chip to make it run slower than the more expensive option.

If someone wants to get the higher range battery they are able to open their wallet and pay Tesla for it. It's insane to think Tesla should just give it away when the people don't want to buy it in the first place (either they don't need it or they don't want to pay for it).

stupid, why not buy a loaded S and get a better car all the way around?

I wonder if you have to submit a video to be considered for that used 3?

Heck you can buy a brand new E-Class and pay for 50 years of gas and repairs for the price of that used 3 series

this is the best part, like they need to tell you they'd never sell it but there is as unique circumstance so you're getting lucky to buy it.

My friend got one of the first S in the US now has 85k miles

He said the only bad thing was the summer tires only were lasting 12K miles each eventually he switched to less summer tires more all season tires to get longer lasting tires.

Might look on the forums to see if there’s an alignment adjustment to get better tire life too.

I’m conflicted between a new Tesla 3 or a slightly used Porsche 911.

I know they’re not the same class of car, but I’m almost at the age where I can’t buy a sports car if I wait too long and the 911 is one of the nice middle age guy spots car.

I don't care about quicker off the line. That's not want a sports car is about. Some people claim Model S is a sports car because it's quick, it's not a sports car it's a large 5-door car. Maybe compare it to a Porsche Panamera or Audi S7 that's what it is like.

I don't give a hang about 1/4 mile times, am coming from S2000 and M3 and the M3 was a bit too big to qualify as a sports car.

The Model S weighs 4700+ lbs. I have a minivan and three-row SUVs that weighs less than a Model S, a sports car and a Model S are not anything alike.

The 911 is not a lightweight car like a Miata it does weigh as low as 3150 (1500 less weight than a well equipped Model S).

A sports car does not have anything to do with being able to do 0-60 of 1/4 mile time quickly.

I'm also not saying that I'm looking at a track car. But if anything a car that can handle on the track is more engaging and fun to drive on a winding road (rather than a car that does good in a straight line).

It's the difference between a fast luxury car (Tesla) and a sports car (anything that stops and turns well on a track or back road).

The Tesla S is not a sports car and not as fun as 911, Corvette, Mustangs, S2200, Cayman, to drive. Yes the Tesla S is fast in a straight line and is nice to drive on the highway and comfortable etc..

http://www.thedrive.com/news/5207/this-video-reminds-us-that-the-tesla-model-s-is-an-awful-track-car

it's painful to watch the Tesla pushed hard around a corner it looks as if it's leaning over hard on its suspension and tires.

this from that youtube Tesla video comment from a Tesla S owner saying Tesla is a nice car to drive on the HW and quick off this line but not a sports car.

That's why I use a Tesla for daily driving.. nice and quiet, pretty boring overall unless its stomping the pedal down at stoplights which lost its novelty after a couple months. My McLaren 570S is much more fun to drive and I prefer to take that most of the time. From 0-60 the Tesla is cool, but after that it starts slowing down and isn't exciting. The McLaren (or any other sports car) is all smiles past 60MPH

Watched that video, looks very nice. My biggest complaint is like he said no instruments or turn signal in front of the driver. I’d prefer to see a setup like the Model S with an extra display even if its an option.

I don’t like the trunk opening, even more so when I see how far up the body the trunk hinge is, it’s like it should be a hatchback. The interior looks a bit empty, the center display is great but it doesn’t need to be the only interaction to the car IMO.

It looks like a fine computer car.

maybe you need to configure the car to unlock when you put it in park. I have other cars and you can program to unlock all or unlock drivers door or none when you put it in park.

Regarding oil, Saudi Arabia is going to bring its oil company public at projected $2 Trillion that’s more than Facebook, Google and Amazon combined.

If oil was nearly over the Saudi company would not be worth $2 Trillion. It’s selling on future sales projections.

I’m sure if Saudi predicts oil to be more valuable in the future they would not be trying to wean off the petroleum dollars, I think it’s going to be a long time before oil is no longer needed.

For 2016, the IEA Oil Market Report forecasts worldwide average demand of nearly 96 million barrels of oil and liquid fuels per day – that works out to more than 35 billion barrels a year

What I’m saying is oil is still big business, if Saudi oil company is worth $2 Trillion that means there’s plans for oil to be sold far into the future.

I agree that it’s not as bright as was 30 years ago but still life left in oil and ICE cars.

I will agree that Saudi is planning for the future when oil is not as big a deal and is cashing out while it’s still a viable concern.

Interesting article about Norway pension fund and Saudi oil IPO.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/amp/articles/2017-11-16/norway-sovereign-wealth-fund-sells-oil-and-gas-stocks

I saw that, there’s a video that discussed auto driving Uber let your car make money for you.

I think once self driving is perfected, that’s going to be a huge blow to the auto industry. Sure it’ll be great to own a car and let it give rides while your at work or you’re sleeping. Like 98% of the time the car is not being used.

But some people will just decide not to buy a car period. They won’t have to pay insurance, upkeep, registration etc.

But likely there will be just amorphous cars that people buy to give rides for pay or companies will become like Amazon for car sharing and they will not care about style just the A-B transportation.

Older cars will become a novelty or hobby like people who own motorcycles now for weekend recreation driving.

Can’t do that with a model 3

I feel the same, I have an old Subaru which is economical, reliable and has been paid off more than 7 years ago, so if no tax credit I’ll just wait until I need a new car.

I think gas taxes are too low, people driving 5000 pound pickups because gas is so cheap.

Plus many people don’t pay a lot of taxes (if the get paid under the table, off the book etc) so consumption tax is more fair to get more people paying in.

Plus it’s noted that higher gas price will lead to more fuel efficient cars and less driving so the roads will be less congested.

You have summer tires?

Goat.

I think you are painting a picture off one car to say that all ICE cars are unreliable.

I have a Subaru Legacy 2007 which an O2 sensor and battery had to be replace was like $300 for the O2 sensor maybe $150 for the battery.

Of course I change the oil and tranny and diff fluid, replaced brakes, wiper blades all that that has been a couple thousand dollars. Plus gas.

I’ve had other cars like my BMW that was a money pit but not every car is, my Honda’s and Acura’s have needed very little or no mechanical work even in the 120K+ miles mark.

My 08 M3 had a throttle actuator issue costs $2k for one car has two I was able to negotiate down to $1700 at the dealership. This is a very common issue with this engine most people say they fail just before or just after the warranty expires. My car was never driven hard. I think BMW should goodwill the part if it’s such a known fault.

My friend had the same car but a later year when his engine stopped working for unknown reason, under warranty thank goodness they had to replace the entire engine which would have been $20K+ if not under warranty.

The repair cost for the DCT transmission is $14K supposedly they can’t repair the transmission they need to replace the whole thing.

I’ll never buy another BMW.

I do know some with other BMWs that have been trouble free so it’s not all are bad, but I’ve owned two BMWs and they were the least reliable cars I’ve ever owned.

My friend has a Tesla S was saying his range is almost cut in half in the bitter cold we were at 8-14 degrees for around 10 days. He was probably overstating the loss but I don’t doubt that it’s extremely noticeable.

He’s got the 260 mike range I believe.

Here’s one guys experience with sub zero temps said loss of ~40% of range.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-range-sub-zero-snowy-conditions/amp/

I’m sure it also makes sense if you drive a shorter trips you’ll lose out because you have to heat the cold car but once it’s heated you don’t need as much power to keep it heated.

One of the side effects of an ICE engine is free heat, also in super cold my little four cylinder car is extra peppy thanks to the denser air intake.

Don’t know if it’s been discussed, at least I’d like to recap from you guys.

Scenario:
-can afford S or 3
-if get S that’s more money obviously
-don’t need a lot of room for family because usually travel with wife’s SUV or can get by with a midsize car for certain trips
-80% will be just myself driving
- would get a more loaded 3

advantage of S
- more room, better power, maybe size gives it more secure ride on HW. Better interior (center display) more comfortable.

advantage 3
- quite a bit cheaper, smaller less weigh may be more fun to drive?

Unsure: the 3 is newer does it have any new better technology or better manufacturing such that it is lighter weight for given range (I mean lighter not just because it’s smaller but lighter because it was built lighter).

Highest listed weight
Tesla 3 3800lbs
Tesla S 4900lbs

S weighs 25-30% heavier than the Tesla 3.

Tesla S weighs more than a typical 3 row SUV, I know it doesn’t feel it but I’m wondering if in 3-5 years we’ll be seeing typical EV with less of a weight penalty. Example the Tesla 3 doesn’t weigh a lot more than a BMW 3 series.

~1100 lbs is the difference between a BMW 3 series and a BMW 7 series.

Time is not my concern, I’ve got a fully paid for Subaru Legacy. I don’t love it but it’s got a certain charm, it’s also something of a penance for me owning my BMW M3. I lost too much money on that car that I’m ok driving a clunker (not really a clunker) but a cheap car that doesn’t cost me a penny. So anyhoo I’ll wait 10-20 months doesn’t matter.

However better point would be getting an S can get tax rebate but that doesn’t offset the extra $30K upgrade to the S, could also get a used S that’s closer to the price of the 3. So I’m looking at factors besides the cost.

It’s possible for me to get Tesla 3 and have enough to buy an older S2000 or some other weekend car.

not much of a review but it seems the verdict was meh?

When the older and more expensive Tesla (TSLA)Model S first debuted, it was simply the best car you could buy at its admittedly high price -- gasoline or electric.
I can't say the same for the Model 3. It's a fun car to drive and it looks upscale, but I can think of cars I'd rather have for $56,000.

If Tesla could somehow bring back a few old-switches and knobs, I'd like this car much better. As it is, lots of people will buy the Model 3 and lots of them will love it. If I wanted to give someone their first taste of electric driving, though, it's not the car I'd put them in. Unless I really wanted to annoy them.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/11/technology/tesla-model-3-review/index.html

Not being negative but the biggest people who love EV are those that want EV above all else. Most people are fine with ICE cars and may be forced to buy EV in future due to government involvement or are being coaxed to buy now due to tax credits. It’s yet to be seen if EV would be the mainstream vehicle of choice which is why the big manufacturers are dipping their toe in the water or may be slower to adopt EV than Tesla. Without EV Tesla has nothing. Ford sells millions of cars and trucks a year.

All Tesla has are EV it’s like Netflix suppose Disney wants to compete with Netflix they may be behind Netflix currently but they are only partly depending on streaming service whereas Netflix is all about streaming. Disney being Ford and Tesla being Netflix. Disney/Ford is doing fine currently they just want to eat away at Netflix/Tesla in the future.

I’m on the Porsche forums and the buyers there are underwhelmed about the Tesla roadster they don’t value 0-60 in 2 seconds as much as they value old fashioned sports car feel manual transmission they call it a analog feel as opposed to digital feel. One of the hottest cars ever is the 911 R which is a lightweight manual transmission loud natural aspirated engine. It’s not as fast as many turbo cars or EV but some people really love the old feeling and interacting with the machine more so than quite quick A-B car.

I like the EV idea mostly because it’s less maintance and I like the technology of Tesla infotainment plus the instant acceleration is neat but overall I’m kind of ambivalent to EV.

If the tax credit is phased out for Tesla they’ll need to lower prices or offer more content at same price I think the 3 will steal sales from S when they are both readily available IMO.

I’m debating not getting a 3 but just keep my place in line until I can get my spot and see how much rebate is left and see how I like driving it.

I wanted to make an observation.

I know 8+ people who own a Tesla. Tesla cars are well known in my immediate working circle and people can afford to buy if they want, but the tax credit is helpful, so when the tax credit goes away Tesla will have to sell on it's own merit (not at a price offset by tax dollars).

My co-worker just bought a Audi S5 Sportback which swims in the same neighborhood as a Tesla S. Here is a Car and Driver mini review

https://www.caranddriver.com/audi/s5-sportback

the car as tested price of $68K so the Tesla S price is *right there* and the two cars are similarly sized for family 4-door hatchback etc.. they basically are in the same exact ballpark. Most people are fine with ICE cars and they don't mind if they need to stop for gas every 5-8 days.

I asked my friend who bought Audi S5 why not a Model S. He said he thinks EV cars are fine but not anything that he feels is necessarily 100% better than ICE. EV has benefits of being cheaper to fuel, instant TQ less to maintain. But the ICE is still the king because it can be fueled whenever you want without any pre-planning. If you want to trip up from Maryland to NYC and back you can start with full tank and one fuel stop on the way back taking less than 10 minutes to refill.

Tesla are somewhat tied down to the charging. If I get a Tesla 3, I'll still be using the ICE cars for long trips. And may prefer something with a old school manual transmission like a Mustang GT or Cayman etc.

I got on list when first 3 was delivered so like July and my estimate is now 2019 for twin engine.

I’m not concerned because I don’t need it currently. My friend owns an S and got invited to buy their 3 but has a regular ICE car that is fine, the 3 would have to replace their other car so they’d go from paid off car to $40K car which they don’t *need* so they may pass their spot on to a friend.

But she told me driving the S on long trips is still not optimal because of charging, if it’s a house you visit you’re getting 10 miles an hour and the super chargers are not everywhere. She was under the impression when she got the S there would be a lot more super charging stations than there are. I also wonder if once there’s 5x more Teslas on the road if you’d ever get stuck waiting for a charging station to open up. As people say it’s just 20 minutes can eat a lunch but what now if you need to wait 20 minuets just to wait a other 20 minuets. What if someone is changing and doesn’t return when it’s done? You have to track them down or can you disconnect and be able to charge as soon as first car is done?

Heck I don’t like waiting for gas at Costco when it’s 5 minuets to get to the pump, I can see this being a real issue if they don’t expand charging areas.

My friend said although she has the S they *always* take the ICE car on trips because it’s just so much more convenient to get gas.

Also she didn’t like no gauges in front of the steering wheel, that’s a big demerit for me as well. At this time people dropping out is not a big deal but I wonder what’s the long term effect once the pre orders are filled and/or people are not getting the rebate. Make no mistake $35k minus $7500 is a great deal. Once it’s no more rebate and/or people are spending another $20k on options it’s a totally different proposition. I mean no problem if you don’t like the fact of no gauges at $27k after rebate but a different story at $50k loaded car no rebate.

Road and Track first drive

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/a15070866/tesla-model-3-test-drive-review/

long video review of the Model 3

A lot of reviews dislike the center screen without venter gauges and ancillary adjustment controls.

Not adjusting things in the car while your driving like the cruise control? I’d ask how could you ever use cruise control without doing so while driving.

Also things like climate control or radio have been in cars for years. Those guys were saying if you watched the video that it’s done a lot better in the S or X where you can change the radio with one click instead of several clicks now with the 3.

Not sure if you all watched the video but they love the car but most every car will have somethings you don’t like as much or hate.

Things like not having a seat lowering adjustable on a $50k car is just stupid.

I have a 12 year old Subaru that was $18k new and just rented a Corolla both have seat lowering feature. Not electric just a little pump handle that car manufacturers have been doing forever.

I’m tall and typically will lower my seat as low as possible. I don’t want to say that a deal breaker but little details matter especially if you are not a tree hugger and just want a car don’t care if it electrons or hydro chemicals, spending $50k should give you a basic level of features.

LoL most likely saved his life, everyone says that when they survive a crash, but you have no way of knowing if it was better than being in an Accord or BMW 3 series. I’ve seen same thing said about Subaru or Saturn cars that the driver credits that specific car with saving their life when they have no evidence at all.

I mean has this been proven that it was a fatal crash in another car or just balderdash?

I’d agree with you in that the car doesn’t look to have any safety issues. I was just pointing out that a lot of cars have many safety features such as airbags, crumple zones, collapsible steering wheels, engines designed to slide down not in (in the event of a crash).

I’d say there’s not enough data to say if Tesla 3 is one of the safest cars ever or just very good.

I’m not saying it’s unsafe at all, just saying that that article is a being touted as showing how safe the 3 is. From me reading that article it didn’t say much about the crash except the paramedic saying the car saved their life, that’s kind of the point of the whole safety features on all cars and crash tests.

You can google search this is probably 6 out of a million such posts:
http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/15-7th-generation/250889-she-saved-my-life-today.html

https://www.subaru.com/why-subaru/articles/saved-my-life-twice.html

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1089570

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/garage/231423-honda-saved-my-life-photos-inside.html

https://www.svtperformance.com/forums/threads/kia-motors-saved-my-life-and-my-girlfriends-life.811143/

https://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/r50-r53-hatch-talk-2002-2006/271841-my-mini-saved-my-life.html

I’m saying one antidotal story does not prove anything, there’s a thing called scientific method, you’d need to have same crash in a different car and see the is the results are any different, that’s the scientific method, you just don’t take the word of a paramedic and say this car or that car is the safest car ever and you’d be dead dead dead in another car.

It’s tired if you can call propaganda from one article but you can’t see reverse propaganda?

Xyz car saved my life, google it, you’ll see every car saves someone’s life.

I may bail on the 3. Not saying that it's a bad car, but I think that I want a better car. I've been thinking of the Tesla S which I know several people own the S.

Here is a fun video (Chris Harris) he is on of the better presenters (IMO).

Still on the fence to me if I'd get an S or keep my old Legacy (for daily) and get a true sports car.

https://www.topgear.com/videos/chris-harris-drives/chris-harris-drives-tesla-model-s-p100d

Estimates at 1000 Model 3 per week and just over 7000 produced to date, not sure if this is accurate but if I'm tail end 250,000 number that's quite a while.

I do know one owner of S that passed on the chance to buy a new 3 he may have given the spot to a friend, but I am not sure of the particulars, and I was not interested to buy one at this exact moment, I have a sizable (but unknown) tax bill and a projected cash bonus in the near future so I need a few months to see exactly where I stand.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/

I'm thinking of buying a BRZ/Toyota 86 with 6MT instead of the M 3. Not that I think the 3 is bad, but I miss my S2000 and want to feel more involved with the car with a small lightweight RWD and manual transmission.

1) Electric/autonomous cars will only get better in years to come.

2) small lightweight and RWD, 6MT inexpensive cars are not common, and petrol cars while not dead yet are getting phased out in years to come. I drove both the BRZ and the MX5 (which was too small for someone my size) they are super fun to drive. I can get for $27-28K (loaded).

3) I am so far down on the list for the M 3 that it would be a year (plus) and the rebate will lower than current.

4) I'm thinkin of keeping my current car and getting an extra car for fun.

I got my fun car yesterday BRZ tS

1D13CA63-083F-4690-96D4-587811201632 (resized).jpeg219C73D2-996E-43AD-819D-F69129F46793 (resized).jpeg

Anyone have trouble getting a refund? I clicked give me refund and then have not heard a thing, no confirmation or anything. I sent an email and nothing. I started a dispute with PayPal but have not heard anything there either.

Tesla is a big company they should refund you or at least respond with an email and say they got my request and when I can expect the refund.

To be fair, a representative from Tesla called me today and said I was refunded on the day I asked but PayPal can take 10–14 days.

Just wanted to clear that up.

I guess PayPal keeps the money as a free loan.

Also because I dropped out is not because I didn’t like the M3 but because I didn’t want to wait 1 year also because I’m not an electric car fanatic, I don’t mind ICE cars and wanted to get a small inexpensive sporty car with manual transmission. I don’t need 4 doors or room for passengers since this is just a spare car for me.

Call me crazy but I still like ICE cars with car engine and exhaust noises and mechanical interactions between engine transmission and driver. Almost like pinball machines which use old mechanisms unlike a computer interaction with of gameplay.

Yep. I think EV are the future but fear they’ll be like washing machines for example you pick a color then you pick the various features and look at reliability and price factors. But at the end of the day you just want something that cleans your clothes.

I don’t mean to sound like old guy yelling at clouds. But I used to own a 76 Chevy Nova and then a 88 WV Fox roll up windows, non power steering. I’m not saying they were anything special but as years went by and modern features started to take it was almost like going from EM machine to a SS machine. Each car I got over the next 30 years was a bit more refined.

The car I got is not anything extra special if you look at the stats you’d say it’s meh. But it has some old school driving feel, the new 911 Porsche are great but not as soulful as the older models now with launch control, PDK, variable steering ratio, rear wheel steering, active shocks, active exhaust etc. new cars are great just not as interactive as the older cars. The car I got is a 2018 BRZ but it feels a lot like my old S2000. I like that you feel the engine power band and have to pay attention to what gear you are in and what speed you are traveling.

Well I just finally got my refund took 60 days.

I'm not sure, but I suspect some foot dragging on the part of Tesla. Sure it could have been a technical hiccup but this is what happened.

1) requested refund.

2) wait a couple weeks nothing so I left an email with Tesla.

3) got a phone call from an actual person from Tesla who said the refund was issued and likely PayPal was the holdup.

4) waited another 3-4 weeks nothing so I sent another email to Tesla

5) finally got the refund to PayPal

It's not a big deal but I wonder how a big company has such trouble issuing a refund.

Probably was PP.

I was not too worried but seems like either way was a long time for refund. One thing that Tesla should do is when refund was requested should send me an email. Amazon does all the time and then I’d have some reference number. As it was they don’t have a good system where I can see what’s happening.