I don't think Bond pricing has anything to do with it and its not just a stern issue but interestingly a new pinball manufacturer comes on the scene and prices similiar to the market. I just think people are stupid and don't realise companies have to make money or go bust.

Venom isn't doing well because, the layout isn't bad but its not a breakthrough design, the shots are super wide, its probably the easiest pinball Stern has ever made, the theme isn't one that is well know or naturally appeals to the masses and joe public is broke or have spend the money on Pulp or something else this year. For all the code and XP and other stuff, pinball is about the ball and flippers and you either make that interesting or people vote with their feet, irrespective of the code/scoring system - which I kinda wished had been debuted on a more compelling title.

ask any distributor, "worst selling game since Black Knight 3K"

I'm kind of in shock that someone who bought the game likes the game.

Also don’t see why this couldn’t have been in the venom hype thread.

The hype thread is an exciting echo chamber for people who already love (or want to love) the game. This is by nature a discussion with people who also feel differently about it.

Venom came and went. A lot of people see Venom as a B level super hero character. It's a bit too obscure of a theme to justify a $7k - $13k pinball purchase for a number of people. Game also has that chunks of exposed metal vibe with flat plastics screwed to it. Unlike Spiderman it's not exactly a theme that most families will want to have in their home either.

Yeah, it got boring quick. Don’t like that I got to Knud within a handful of hours of playing. Don’t like the way the balls don’t flow though the ramps continuously. It’s especially annoying during multiball. Have never liked Dwight code and this game is no exception. The layout is just really boring in the pro at least. Haven’t played the LE and hopefully it’s better. There are no tough shots. There are no hard angle shots to the far left or right. And lastly, who gives a shit about comic book venom. Horrible theme.

Not a theme for me, but a great playing game with super cool rules. Not a cookie cutter game in any way. No regrets buying my premium. Everyone who has tried mine really likes it. Pinball player or not. Funny almost all of my pinball friends bought one, hard to believe sales are low but I guess they are. Sales in general are way down.

It’s a cookie cutter game in every way, except lacking left to right shots. So cookie cutter minus.

Whenever someone decides something is either overrated or underrated- which happens 785 times a day here - they also decide it needs its own thread.

Sometimes you just have to look at someones collection and all makes clear.
TS4 and GnR owners bashing on Venom which they never played...

You can only judge a game after a few days/weeks of home use.

Interesting thing here is I think it's way more a location game than a home game. I dig that they're trying to flip the dopamine receptors in a new way (even if it's literally a 20y old approach cribbed from video games, it's new to pinball). But, I have a hard time seeing it be able to inject enough NEW with each progressive replay to keep you going like a roguelike does. I can see looking forward to playing it every few weeks on location, but at home I'd burn it up and be done with in a week.

It really does need to be acknowledged that they're trying new stuff here though. Yeah, it's a boring fan layout, but the code is really unique. I dig the idea of the changing mid shot more than the implementation - really don't feel like it adds anything substantial vs. Pro like you'd think. The flash thompson dead end shot is just lame too. But it's proof of concept, and I hope they experiment with that kinda thing more too - I think the RIGHT implementation of the idea could be stellar.

Seems like a high bar that only the richest of us could accomplish for more than a handful of pins. So I'm only allowed to judge four modern Sterns and roughly five old B/W titles because that's all I've personally owned? Hogwash.

I just don't think they went far enough with the 'change the game' angle. You could argue that Batman 66 and the rotating bat cave thingie changes the playfield roughly the same amount as a Venom Premium does.

Because if you are critical of a game in the owners thread or fanboy thread people meltdown and report you to the mods. Then Robin bans you from his sight for being mean to the pinball companies. Does anyone remember a permanent ban given to a pinsider because he correctly pointed out a design flaw on Hobbitt and posted a pic of a broken ramp?

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Correct sir.
Sad but true.
Judging by watching videos on YouTube or by playing it 10 minutes in a noisy bar is the real hogwash.

Surprised how much i enjoyed playing this game, LE and pro….after about an hour of playing i did start enjoying the LE much more. The barcade i played at (blue moon, killer place to play) had bm66, ff le, gz le, bond le and a few others but i kept coming back to venom le. It was a blast.

We have a quite divided Congress…I mean Pinside community.

Yeah if you actually invest several hours of play time in this game and rate - fair enough.

Seems like better players are bored/unexcited with this?!?

Home league of 30 + (average players) enjoy it quite a bit.

Me? I really enjoy Venom. Played three hours straight the other day. But I also really like UM and LZ(seriously).

Well historically Brian Eddy DOES like to keep it simple. Which can be a nice palate cleanser from time to time.

I think it’s fine to have impressions based on videos or limited play, but agree that too many take definitive, outspoken, often repetitive positions based on little to no play. Just as bad as owners blatantly pumping a game.

I understand what you’re saying and can relate to it. I have Venom LE and at first I was thinking it was a big mistake because I was kinda meh as I was playing it. It wasn’t until day 2 that I was thinking it was not bad and now a week of playing it’s really grown on me.

If I was playing it on location and got 10-20 games on it I would have probably written it off.

I had the same experience with SW and TWD and BM66 that it wasn’t love at first sight. Other pins like DP or JP for example I was able to vibe with immediately.

Also imo Venom is very different than a lot of other games due to its code structure with the mini modes and too people can play the two multi ball modes without ever playing the grid or battle modes. I’m fact at the beginning I was more or less just playing the 2 multi balls.

I’m not crazy about everything on the game it’s very narrow meaning the code is straight up and not much width. I guess the doppelgänger and bell tower modes are on the side but not very much in comparison to games like JP or Godzilla.

I think the opposite is for this game. Location is going to be where it shines! I'm not going to buy a quarter muncher arcade like TMNT or Simpsons because in my house it losses it's luster when I can just continue at no charge until I see the end but man did those games crush in the arcade back in the day. So yeah, on Venom, I'm dropping a buck every single time I'm at the pinball pub.

One other point that occurred to me is that 99% of us do not buy every pin. I’m not talking about the often heard phrase ‘I’ll put a few quarters in it when I see it on location’. That goes without saying.

Whenever a pin is released we have to qualify or disqualify it from purchase.

Toy Story is the bad movie.

GnR is all multi balls

Bond has an oddball layout

People sometimes prejudge a pin good or bad. Someone might buy SW just because it’s theme. I see this all the time. Someone loves BTTF so they already know it’s a 10/10 pin.

I saw Carry Hardy impression when Venom was revealed he didn’t like the theme (I think he said he never saw the movie and had no connection to the theme) then he went on to point out how bad everything about the pin was. When he played it and of course it was not good.

Same guy Carry Hardy sees Labyrinth trailer and he’s just about to die with delight. He saw the movie 600 times when he was a kid. It’s happening!! OMG it’s happening!! He’s over the moon. Of course he’s going to be more excited and delighted with Labyrinth pin.

It’s very hard to judge a pin early on and when price gets factored in it’s even worse.

It's just like every other pin. People hate it and people love it and everyone is certain they are right. I've only owned mine for a very little bit. Initial impressions are that it's very, very different from other recent sterns. Different in mechs and in code design. That will be a turn on or turn off for people. It's also a game that is not going to blow you away on the first several plays. It sort of has a building affect that takes time and understanding the code to really appreciate. Some people won't like it no matter what. I appreciate that its a completely different take. Time will tell is its a winner or not. Way too early to say.

Ahh yes, another day, another thread with pinsiders who yesterday parroted the opinion that attack from mars and medieval madness are god tier pins, whilst today, shitting on venom for being “boring fan layouts”.

Like, this dumb rhetoric of “bOrInG fAn LaYoUtS” is actually a meaningless statement. It’s just catchy insular phrase ( one of dozens here ) to bark on forums to impress other loser forum lurkers.

A pinball machine has a finite amount of space. 2 flippers, 20 flippers, it doesn’t fucking matter. You don’t magically add more space by adding a 3rd flipper.

5 of the top 10 machines here on fan layouts
10 of the top 20 are too.

so yeah, get the fuck outta here with this “lol fan layout” shit.

Maybe it's because I am still relatively new to the hobby and haven't played enough pins to really appreciate "deep code" but to me theme is like 90% of the appeal of a machine. Unless there is something unbelievably cool about a game there is almost no way I'd buy a machine with a theme I don't have some attraction to. Like Toy Story 4.... I haven't seen a Toy Story movie since the first one was in the theaters, there is almost nothing that would get me to buy that machine.

That is why I like a lot of older machines with generic themes. Medieval Madness, Funhouse etc. There is no strong feeling to turn you off of it, you just appreciate it for what it is and the theme is like gravy on top to tie everything together.
I got a chance to play Nuclear Annihilation and Dialed Up recently and those were both super cool. I didn't get hung up on whether or not I liked the theme, I just accepted it for what it was and enjoyed the flow.

No way I could understand the code on location. I really needed it to be at my home, and get through 30 games to understand what I needed to do. Even, reading the 30+ page rulesheet kinda helps, but you really need to do it hands on...like a video game.
I could see where pros would get bored with Venom, but it is a nice change of pace for newbs.

With a name like that? So disappointed!

More locations need headphone jacks in their machines. I have such a hard time figuring out what the game is all about when I can't hear the callouts and sounds. And what good is a music pin if you can't hear the music?!

There's ways to make a two-flipper fan layout that doesn't just feel like a boring fan layout. Deadpool is the best at this. GOTG is decent. Maybe EHOH is okayish.

One key is to have shots at varying distances, and that's what those above games do. That's what Eddy never does, all of AFM, MM, Stranger Things, Mando, Venom have all the shots at the same distance two-thirds up the playfield, and that's a big part of all the shots feeling samey.

Another is backhandable shots, so at least there's multiple ways to hit the same one. Ritchie does this, on all of Game of Thrones, Star Wars, Led Zep, BKSOR. Eddy's games often have one backhandable shot (Stranger's left ramp and Mando's right ramp), though that tends to not be quite enough for variety.

A good game is easier to learn how to play imo. Pretty much every game is fun once you learn how to play but it's not fun to grind a bunch of gamest o get there. Venom is a weak theme and that hurts it, too. I played a few games and wasn't too interested in playing more. I thought Foo Fighters did a decent job explaining what to do and was a fun layout. Love the animations. It was just a drain monster, at least the game I played. Bond was fun before but really enjoyed it with updated code. Ended up playing those games and honestly just forgot about Venom.

Look, I think we just have to face the facts:

Venom sucks, it's a bad theme, a boring game, and it's a flop. If anything it's overrated by people who have "invested" 5 figures in one.

This one may be out of print quicker than Black Knight was. And that thing was actually fun to play!

The only question is this: Does it follow the Stranger THings/ Stern POTC trajectory (bad games nobody bought that somehow become sought after later because they made so few), or does it fade away gracefully?

Interesting question. The only real answer for Stern is; it's worth a shot

I actually find it a bit weird that it's so polarizing. At pinfest, everyone I talked to thought it was an amazing game - and I ended up liking it so much I went all in on a NIB LE which I've never done before. I thought it shot great, flowed amazingly well and felt like something really fresh from Stern even if it did have a somewhat standard layout. I really like what they've done with the code it means people will actually get to see all the modes and features eventually, and the artwork, display/animations and sound were awesome.

Venom and Bond were by far the 2 best games I played there - (I was a bit biased because I already have a Bond and just think it's so superb it's destined to be one of Sterns best), but Venom's really impressed me so far.

After watching a rules video I stand by my original assesment: "Venom is a really cool table for people that don't choke when shooting on fan layouts, like me."
I think the software and rules are really cool, but I imagine it'll be remembered in a way Aerosmith was: the start of something new, to be eclipsed by later iterations.

I hope it's in the tournament at Pinball Expo so I can see some top players tearing it up.

Alright, now to find me one of these suoer cheap Venoms.

I don’t believe it’s that much underrated tho. If people honestly want an all around table look at JP or Godzilla or DP or Maiden. Those modern tables are more mainstream and let’s face it have been out 2-4 years and are still selling well.

I think Venom is not selling that well at the moment and thus not be a ‘big hit’. But not every pin is a big hit. I have a large collection and already own Godzilla, Metallica, DP, SW. Venom is a great pin for me in a large collection and I’m a comic nerd so much more of its target audience.

Bill Parcells said “you are what your record says you are”. I think Venom is stuck with its current sales based on what it is. It’s not Godzilla, it’s never going to be the king. Even if Godzilla fades off the top spot it’ll always be a top pin from the 2000s much as TAF is always going to be a top pin from the 90s.

I’m not saying Venom is bad but I’m certainly not banging the drum to say it’s better than DP for a close example.

Also people say it’s the cost of pins aren’t selling. But guess what Foo was the same cost and it sold better than Venom.

I will say in it’s defense, Venom isn’t as traditional a pin as Foo which probably has code structure like DP. People might not want something as different as Venom.

I can say that so far I’ve played more games on my Venom LE that I just got one week ago than on my two newer pins Maiden and GoT that I got a few months ago. It’s really sucked me into hunting for the speed run and to unlock the characters. I’m super bad so it’s frustrating but I keep hitting start.

I also like how hard is is, someone said it was a super easy layout with open shots. That’s not my opinion. Half my games are 2 minutes or less especially if I don’t go for the multi balls because I’m hunting Knull.

11k barely played. LE

Nothing is selling well. Venom is a really good game and so is FF. Both would have sold better a couple of years ago. CCr are going for dirt cheap used, GF is an absolute sales disaster only eclipsed by GTF. Scooby sold pretty well by boutique standards despite being an average shooter at best. Other boutique games like Centaur are sales duds as was Bond 60th. Times have changed and we now have a huge assortment to choose from and much less demand. Something has to give. I can't see all these companies surviving and now we even have a new company with another great looking game in Labyrinth.

I believe that.

PB Alien is releasing with a new art package at a cheaper price, I am tempted about that but just about out of room.

I was supposed to get CC remake but decided to cancel, I play a lot of CC on location and didn't feel like there was enough to do in the code (maybe the new code would help out).

I really like Venom LE, it was super expensive but I really like the way it plays and for my collection it really brings something different to the table with the saved progress.

Venom sucks the sweat off a dead man’s balls. It’s right up there with that wrestling pin. Only without the nostalgia. One of Stern worst. I spit on its grave. Pftooey.

Thanks for adding these meaningful and articulate insights into this conversation.

"the start of something new, to be eclipsed by later iterations."
I think this is spot on.
I only ordered Venom AFTER playing it at SFGE. Its the 4th pin at home. Would I get it as an only pin?...not so sure about that.

As an operator, the leveling up across games is *the* feature that sold me on Venom. (The playfield is the fanniest-fan we have seen in quite some time...thankfully there is an inner loop).

I am hoping that newer players play it over and over because they can essentially buy their way to the wizard mode. It's a good way to continue to make games that are deep enough for great players, but can still appeal to the newbies. (I can't go a week or two without overhearing someone say that they'll never get to most of the code in modern games).

Seems to be doing pretty good so far, earnings-wise, although not as strong of a start as Foo (which was one of the best I've seen).

And also, there are enough games coming out right now that they shouldn't all be the same, or even all appeal to the same players. Some people hate Munsters, and others love it.

Maybe that's the operator in me taking...I want a mix of games, appealing to different players, for different reasons.

We got 4 new games at the co-op at the same time... well, three NIB and one older one in Bond, Foo, Venom, and T2.

Everyone was excited about Bond first, then Foo, then T2, and last Venom. "Why did you buy this" someone asked me, and nobody argued or laughed when that question was asked. It wasn't well received by patrons, and was only played if everything else was full.

It's been nearly 5 weeks since and now it's the game that everyone's been running to when I open. They love the leveling up and continuation of their progress to open up new characters and challenges, they love trying to find different ways to score by starting with different character choices, they love the challenge of a 6 ball multiball, the mini wizard modes, the different and unique challenge modes, etc.

It's now the top game and the code is still improving. Venom is trending upwards from where I stand. I know the results will be different for different people but this is what I've seen so far.

This occurred to me: what about Pokemon! The mini-modes and experience features on Venom would fit perfectly as a pilot test for a Pokemon game structure. Imagine that: each of those mini-modes catches a pokemon, and your account tracks that between games until you get all 150 or 250 or 439 or whatever, and your experience levels up until you beat the boss. And Pokemon was on that rumor list for Stern in 2024/2025, and the timing would be about right for the same crew from Venom to do that next. I called it and you heard it here first

Pokemon would be neat, there is a ton of content to work with but I maintain that we won't see a Nintendo pin any time soon, especially from Stern. The licensing costs will be huge and Nintendo is notorious for how controlling they are with the IPs they license out. Apparently for Mario + Rabbids Nintendo was directly involved with all of the design choices to make sure it aligns with their aesthetic and their company image.

I thought this, too.

And then I remembered that they licensed to Mega Blocks over LEGO.

Yup

Pinball league folks would play around with it and would shrug their shoulders and say WTF.

Then I would talk them through the game and show them what to do and now the game is super addictive for everyone.

Shooting those two shot combos is so satisfying. To beat Grendel and Knull your shots have to be spot on and it is so gratifying. Can’t keep away from the game.