Why is it, you do not have the right to either of the following :- Repair, Replacement or Refund within six months of purchase such as within the EU ?
After the six month period we can then only take a repair or replacement ( could be different within various EU countries ).
Over here Stern or the retailer/distributor doesn't dictate the warranty periods, the consumer rights act does. Seems odd to be in such a position as the US ?
Quoted from ian866:Why is it, you do not have the right to either of the following :- Repair, Replacement or Refund within six months of purchase such as within the EU ?
After the six month period we can then only take a repair or replacement ( could be different within various EU countries ).
Over here Stern or the retailer/distributor doesn't dictate the warranty periods, the consumer rights act does. Seems odd to be in such a position as the US ?
This isn’t a topic of warranty dispute - but of execution performance.
Even most EU consumer protection laws are written vaguely like ‘reasonable amount of time’ for the vendor to execute. So you have to goto your consumer protection advocate to arbitrate or try yo force the issue.
Same thing here in the US…. We have both federal and state agencies for this… they just are completely incapable of really working on individual cases.
You’d have to get enough of a build up across a lot of customers and be able garner the attention of the gov agencies before maybe a letter gets sent.
Doesn't work quite like that in the UK, most retailers know the consumer rights act will always come down on the side of the customer if they can show they've taken sufficient steps and given the retailer time to source parts etc. Six months is usually enough to be sufficient to make a claim.
Then its as easy as going into the small claims court armed with the evidence and getting either a replacement or a refund, job done !
As a pinball machine is classed as an 'electrical item', the court would take a very dim view of not wanting to resolve any issue ( especially in a home environment ) and may also refer it to a criminal court to prosecute the retailer for negligence !
Pity you guys don't have the same back up.
We are currently trying to figure out my rush stepper motor issue though. There responding to that .
New node. Still intermittent. Zip ties too tight on stepper harness caused visible damage. Molex Crimps read resistance. I wish they would just send a new harness and stepper. There making me jump through 10 hopes for them trying to track down a constant issue that is intermittent. It's clearly the harness and stepper..... As long as they communicate I will jump though. No problem. Like I told them there crimps suck.
Just filled a parts request through distro on worn out Munsters topper. Cam switch died motor ran constantly all day I wasn't on location and burned up the gearbox for the clock. Raven door hinge and solenoid glide block bad.
Our games get tons of play. I don't think they get that.
Quoted from spectrum-1980s:We are currently trying to figure out my rush stepper motor issue though. There responding to that .
New node. Still intermittent. Zip ties too tight on stepper harness caused visible damage. Molex Crimps read resistance. I wish they would just send a new harness and stepper. There making me jump through 10 hopes for them trying to track down a constant issue that is intermittent. It's clearly the harness and stepper..... As long as they communicate I will jump though. No problem. Like I told them there crimps suck.
Just filled a parts request through distro on worn out Munsters topper. Cam switch died motor ran constantly all day I wasn't on location and burned up the gearbox for the clock. Raven door hinge and solenoid glide block bad.
Our games get tons of play. I don't think they get that.
What's at fault, the drum clock, the ramp or both ?
Quoted from ian866:Doesn't work quite like that in the UK, most retailers know the consumer rights act will always come down on the side of the customer if they can show they've taken sufficient steps and given the retailer time to source parts etc. Six months is usually enough to be sufficient to make a claim.
Then its as easy as going into the small claims court armed with the evidence and getting either a replacement or a refund, job done !
As a pinball machine is classed as an 'electrical item', the court would take a very dim view of not wanting to resolve any issue ( especially in a home environment ) and may also refer it to a criminal court to prosecute the retailer for negligence !
Pity you guys don't have the same back up.
So, are guys over there getting your parts in a timely manner because of your CP laws?
Quoted from spectrum-1980s:We are currently trying to figure out my rush stepper motor issue though. There responding to that .
New node. Still intermittent. Zip ties too tight on stepper harness caused visible damage. Molex Crimps read resistance. I wish they would just send a new harness and stepper. There making me jump through 10 hopes for them trying to track down a constant issue that is intermittent. It's clearly the harness and stepper..... As long as they communicate I will jump though. No problem. Like I told them there crimps suck.
If you think you have bad crimps, why don't you just recrimp the connector(s) and eliminate those crimps as a cause?
Quoted from RyanStl:So, are guys over there getting your parts in a timely manner because of your CP laws?
No, we are not receiving any priority or preference on parts, if anything it's probably worse.
I don't believe it's got to that point yet, but if it doesn't improve it will be going down that path for satisfactory resolution to outstanding issues.
I feel sorry for both the retailer and the importer as they will ultimately end up bearing the cost, not Stern.
Quoted from ian866:Apologies to spectrum-1980s for going off at a tangent on this thread.
Why, it's not a tangent; it's relevant. Plus you are bumping this thread for more to see.
Stern is sending a new stepper motor and harness for rush le under warranty. Thank you Stern! If I receive the part and it is correct this will be my first smooth extremely positive experience.
Does anyone know about the legality side of company's supporting commercial equipment and products? Is this something we can go after....?
This is shitty to read. Its tough to justify paying the current price for a nib game. But reading 
spectrum-1980s issues completely dissuade me from buying one or more games.
Tough times.
Best of luck to you getting this resolved.
Quoted from Enaud:Has anyone considered filing a complaint with the BBB
It's basically old school yelp. Not effective for much of anything.
Quoted from Enaud:FTC complaint?
No idea if they would help with commercial equipment, but this seems to be a place to start:
https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/warranties#report
Quoted from Enaud:Maybe just some bad publicity.
Like posting to a huge pinball audience? I'm not sure if that really moved the needle much or lit a fire, unfortunately.
Just saw this thread. Sorry you’re going through this. You’re not alone.
I’ve been waiting for 6 months for a dual driver lamp board for a Stranger things that won’t work without it. It’s infuriating. Without that board the ramp doesn’t work. Of course the menu has options to disable the ramp, but the game code doesn’t do anything to support this. The game gets stuck waiting for you to hit the demogorgan.
I’ve been in contact with a couple people at stern that can only tell me the board is out of stock with no timeline on getting more. I’ve contacted all the pinball parts suppliers you can think of and they all have them on order, and are waiting just like me. I’ve reached out to board repair services as well, but they can’t help me because the chip that is bad has a program I would need from stern.
I'm not buying anymore spikes until stern starts making folks whole with parts.
Maybe a brave soul can start a boycott thread, gonna be tough to avoid the stern apologist flaming for the op but the excuses of part shortages don't apply when manufacturing is still taking place like it once was.
Quoted from chubtoad13:Just saw this thread. Sorry you’re going through this. You’re not alone.
I’ve been waiting for 6 months for a dual driver lamp board for a Stranger things that won’t work without it. It’s infuriating. Without that board the ramp doesn’t work. Of course the menu has options to disable the ramp, but the game code doesn’t do anything to support this. The game gets stuck waiting for you to hit the demogorgan.
I’ve been in contact with a couple people at stern that can only tell me the board is out of stock with no timeline on getting more. I’ve contacted all the pinball parts suppliers you can think of and they all have them on order, and are waiting just like me. I’ve reached out to board repair services as well, but they can’t help me because the chip that is bad has a program I would need from stern.
Exact issue with my game of thrones le spike 1 node 8. Total bullshit.
The rush warranty stepper has arrived. Without the fucking harness they said they were sending wasn't even on the warranty order. Who the hell needs smacked. Sit and wait to sit and wait.
Still nothing on the Mando warranty rivited plastic assembly. That's over a year now I believe.
We did purchase a le model 007 pinball. Why? Purchase it's what the players want. I just want to say pinball brothers has been an absolute pleasure to work with we met them at expo and gave us free parts and set us up with a 500 parts store gift card in exchange for some of John's precision products we endorse for him and just ask for Simon at pinball brothers. Responds next day and super knowledgeable and there prime goal is operators. Amazing people. Super friendly. Pro operator. Support for days.
Everyone I tried to talk to at Stern was to bussy to talk to me except jack.
Stern needs to come out and publicly apologies to operators. At expo Stern even said most of there clientele are home owners. Does that mean we are no longer important? That's what it sounded like to me. Stern pinball expo tour on YouTube and skip to the q and a section. It's pretty clear Garry does not run the ship anymore.
Operators? Again; with the high praise for yourself.
Look; I get you want to be the center of the universe... but EVERYONE deserves warranty parts.
Not just you because you have the preconceived notion that you deserve special treatment because you operate a business.
Go buy Pinball Brother's pinball machines and stop buying Stern.
If you can't bring yourself to show Stern the door after they way you've been treated... then you really have no further business bitching.
Try not making this about your lofty Operator self... and try making about everyone who can't get parts.
Quoted from Zitt:Operators? Again; with the high praise for yourself.
Look; I get you want to be the center of the universe... but EVERYONE deserves warranty parts.
Not just you because you have the preconceived notion that you deserve special treatment because you operate a business.
Go buy Pinball Brother's pinball machines and stop buying Stern.
If you can't bring yourself to show Stern the door after they way you've been treated... then you really have no further business bitching.
Try not making this about your lofty Operator self... and try making about everyone who can't get parts.
Damn dude
Quoted from Zitt:Operators? Again; with the high praise for yourself.
Look; I get you want to be the center of the universe... but EVERYONE deserves warranty parts.
Not just you because you have the preconceived notion that you deserve special treatment because you operate a business.
Go buy Pinball Brother's pinball machines and stop buying Stern.
If you can't bring yourself to show Stern the door after they way you've been treated... then you really have no further business bitching.
Try not making this about your lofty Operator self... and try making about everyone who can't get parts.
The market has shifted to the overwhelming majority of NIB sales are to homes, but don’t forget, if not for an operator, how many people would’ve ever experienced pinball? Pretty sure it was a group of operators not homeowners that got pinball legalized in New York. Leagues and tournaments and IFPA were all started by operators. It’s not all about us, but don’t forget that Stern has made it a point to ship the newest title games to operators first to get more games in the wild and drive location play for those that may not be able to afford a NIB purchase or are on the fence about one. The life of the pinball operator isn’t as easy as you think.
Quoted from Zitt:Operators? Again; with the high praise for yourself.
Look; I get you want to be the center of the universe... but EVERYONE deserves warranty parts.
Not just you because you have the preconceived notion that you deserve special treatment because you operate a business.
Go buy Pinball Brother's pinball machines and stop buying Stern.
If you can't bring yourself to show Stern the door after they way you've been treated... then you really have no further business bitching.
Try not making this about your lofty Operator self... and try making about everyone who can't get parts.
Damn bro! Rough one at the Mod maker union meeting last night?
Don’t hate all the ops!
Quoted from Zitt:If you can't bring yourself to show Stern the door after they way you've been treated... then you really have no further business bitching.
If you are an operator and you want to place new equip out you are routing Stern machines. There really isn’t a choice. New JJP every 3 years doesn’t work
Quoted from ian866:What's at fault, the drum clock, the ramp or both ?
Both when the node fails. Poor crimps and overtigh ted zip ties on the harness caused the stepper load on the ramp to be unbalanced and fry the driver chip on the node.
Quoted from Zitt:Operators? Again; with the high praise for yourself.
Look; I get you want to be the center of the universe... but EVERYONE deserves warranty parts.
Not just you because you have the preconceived notion that you deserve special treatment because you operate a business.
Go buy Pinball Brother's pinball machines and stop buying Stern.
If you can't bring yourself to show Stern the door after they way you've been treated... then you really have no further business bitching.
Try not making this about your lofty Operator self... and try making about everyone who can't get parts.
My point here being not that we deserve anything special. Unfortunately with higher plays on a commercial grade machine we suffer a higher rate of failure. Both parties should have equal parts supply and help yes. They should treat homebuyers as operators they bought there product.
If a machine is on the line and a home buyer or operator need a part for a already purchased game off the line it should be shipped to them they already committed
This is a sad read. I bought tons of NIB Sterns for ~10 years with zero complaints for tech support and parts support. In fact, they were the best at that hands down. I called their 800 tech support number more times than I can recollect and had no trouble getting immediate assistance, or at worst a quick call back. Dorothy was great at getting parts out quickly. Lower cost parts were sent out freely with no distributor involvement. Heck, they even gave me tech support on a couple Sega and Data East pins, being they made those titles pre name change.
I'm not sure what caused this, perhaps Covid, but doing away with their live tech support line was a very poor business decision. I know they lost Chaz, who was a legend, but he wasn't their only good tech. Getting tech support via email sucks ass. It is no substitue for having a live whiz on the line walking you through the steps while you've got the glass off on your pin. Immediate diagnosis and immediate parts support.
This massive customer service failure combined with the recent price gouging has me totally out off. I have literally bought dozens and I think I'm all done now.
Well today Stern has been responding with multiple replies regarding my rush warranty and Eddie has been a big help. I have been given the green light to install the new stepper motor and test.
Quoted from doublestack:Don’t hate all the ops!
I don't.
I don't even hate the Op.
What I hate is people thinking they should get special treatment. We all do it... But the op shouldn't be trying to paint his needs in a better light than others
If you continue to buy product from Stern in this climate, you are to blame
Quoted from Zitt:I don't.
I don't even hate the Op.
What I hate is people thinking they should get special treatment. We all do it... But the op shouldn't be trying to paint his needs in a better light than others
If you continue to buy product from Stern in this climate, you are to blame
Yes I am to blame equally as much as a home buyer is.
Quoted from spectrum-1980s:Both when the node fails. Poor crimps and overtigh ted zip ties on the harness caused the stepper load on the ramp to be unbalanced and fry the driver chip on the node.
What is the chip that has blown ? If it's not a programmable IC, it may be be possible to replace as a workaround even though it should clearly be replaced under warranty.
Quoted from Zitt:Look; I get you want to be the center of the universe...
I'm not ?
Well crap that sucks.
I do agree with you. My warranty part isn't any more important to me then to a collector. We both paid the same for the game. And treatment should be equal.
LTG : )
Quoted from seenev:Imagine if some people got together and started creating open-source eagle files for Stern PCBs where anyone could order boards and populate them and do their own run for hard to get parts.
Been wondering about this for a while but hadn't been able to find anything conclusive via the search tool. This post is the closest I've come!
What would be the legality of reverse engineering, say, the #8/9 core node board (these being the most prevalent, from what I understand) and making the unpopulated PCBs (and the component BoM) available to the public?
What about the legality of an individual doing small runs of populated boards in their garage and selling them as a third party alternative to the unobtanium-but-official Stern boards?
My gut says "not legal." Does RottenDog (as an example) get by on their Bally/Williams/DE/Gottlieb/Stern Whitestar boards being quote unquote "redesigns of the originals?"
I guess I'm just surprised nobody's done this yet, and I'm assuming there's a good reason for that. SMD just too much more difficult to DIY?
Quoted from JStoltz:Been wondering about this for a while but hadn't been able to find anything conclusive via the search tool. This post is the closest I've come!
What would be the legality of reverse engineering, say, the #8/9 core node board (these being the most prevalent, from what I understand) and making the unpopulated PCBs (and the component BoM) available to the public?
What about the legality of an individual doing small runs of populated boards in their garage and selling them as a third party alternative to the unobtanium-but-official Stern boards?
My gut says "not legal." Does RottenDog (as an example) get by on their Bally/Williams/DE/Gottlieb/Stern Whitestar boards being quote unquote "redesigns of the originals?"
I guess I'm just surprised nobody's done this yet, and I'm assuming there's a good reason for that.
Do any of the chips on the node boards have software on them? I assume so as they update once in a while. In that case, is it even possible to recreate the node boards without the software? You can get all the parts and put them together, but how would you flash the necessary software?
Quoted from seenev:Do any of the chips on the node boards have software on them? I assume so as they update once in a while. In that case, is it even possible to recreate the node boards without the software? You can get all the parts and put them together, but how would you flash the necessary software?
Perhaps the CPU pushes that to the nodes? I know it often says updating node board X after an update.
Quoted from seenev:Do any of the chips on the node boards have software on them? I assume so as they update once in a while. In that case, is it even possible to recreate the node boards without the software? You can get all the parts and put them together, but how would you flash the necessary software?
https://sternpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/520-7017-72D-Core-Node-Hall-3amp.pdf
Looks like the rev shown in the above schematic of the 520-7017-72D does contain an Arm based microcontroller. I dunno without digging in if you could read the flash memory from an official node board and flash it to an unofficial one. Guess it's also possible that the normal node board update process might just take care of it for you.. But again, dunno.
Other than the LPC1313FN33, I'm not seeing anything else that looks like it would require programming. Just shift register ICs and MOSFETs, stuff like that.
LPC1313FN33 (resized).png
Quoted from JStoltz:https://sternpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/520-7017-72D-Core-Node-Hall-3amp.pdf
Looks like the rev shown in the above schematic of the 520-7017-72D does contain an Arm based microcontroller. I dunno without digging in if you could read the flash memory from an official node board and flash it to an unofficial one. Guess it's also possible that the normal node board update process might just take care of it for you.. But again, dunno.
https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/arm-microcontrollers/general-purpose-mcus/lpc1300-arm-cortex-m3/entry-level-32-bit-microcontroller-mcu-based-on-arm-cortex-m3-core:LPC1313FHN33
Other than the LPC1313FN33, I'm not seeing anything else that looks like it would require programming. Just shift register ICs and MOSFETs, stuff like that.
[quoted image]
From reading about a replacement Spike 2 cpu needing to be sent to Stern for programming, I'd imagine, at least that board does need some sort of serial number mapping or something. The user got a replacement that worked, but would not allow insider connected to function due to his serial number not being coded into the cpu. That's from memory, though.
Quoted from JStoltz:Been wondering about this for a while but hadn't been able to find anything conclusive via the search tool. This post is the closest I've come!
What would be the legality of reverse engineering, say, the #8/9 core node board (these being the most prevalent, from what I understand) and making the unpopulated PCBs (and the component BoM) available to the public?
What about the legality of an individual doing small runs of populated boards in their garage and selling them as a third party alternative to the unobtanium-but-official Stern boards?
My gut says "not legal." Does RottenDog (as an example) get by on their Bally/Williams/DE/Gottlieb/Stern Whitestar boards being quote unquote "redesigns of the originals?"
I guess I'm just surprised nobody's done this yet, and I'm assuming there's a good reason for that. SMD just too much more difficult to DIY?
You can’t copy their board directly but you can make functional equivalent replacements that are your own design. The problem is the firmware and software already on the board you can’t duplicate or distribute without permission.
Duplication there is a direct copyright issue w/o debate.
Someone would have to crack to read the code or reverse engineer it. Not impossible but specialized
Example maybe reversing the bootstrapping enough to the point spike sees it as a valid board and does an upgrade of it. But people typically key that to be specific to your company and brand to provide a copyright defense against clones
Quoted from flynnibus:You can’t copy their board directly but you can make functional equivalent replacements that are your own design. The problem is the firmware and software already on the board you can’t duplicate or distribute without permission.
Duplication there is a direct copyright issue w/o debate.
Someone would have to crack to read the code or reverse engineer it. Not impossible but specialized
Example maybe reversing the bootstrapping enough to the point spike sees it as a valid board and does an upgrade of it. But people typically key that to be specific to your company and brand to provide a copyright defense against clones
That makes sense-- thanks for clarifying! Figured there was some kind of roadblock.
Any thoughts from a "right to repair" perspective? That is, DIY of a board to replace a failed one for yourself.
Quoted from JStoltz:https://sternpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/520-7017-72D-Core-Node-Hall-3amp.pdf
Looks like the rev shown in the above schematic of the 520-7017-72D does contain an Arm based microcontroller. I dunno without digging in if you could read the flash memory from an official node board and flash it to an unofficial one. Guess it's also possible that the normal node board update process might just take care of it for you.. But again, dunno.
https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/arm-microcontrollers/general-purpose-mcus/lpc1300-arm-cortex-m3/entry-level-32-bit-microcontroller-mcu-based-on-arm-cortex-m3-core:LPC1313FHN33
Other than the LPC1313FN33, I'm not seeing anything else that looks like it would require programming. Just shift register ICs and MOSFETs, stuff like that.
[quoted image]
Could something like this work?
https://forum.arduino.cc/t/how-to-rip-code-off-an-arduino/683082/2
The atmega328p-au chip in the arduino uno is a 32 pin microcontroller. If you took the chip from a stern node board, could you rip the software this way? I have a 32 pin socket for programming atmegas. I've never tried ripping anything though... 
Quoted from seenev:Could something like this work?
https://forum.arduino.cc/t/how-to-rip-code-off-an-arduino/683082/2
The atmega328p-au chip in the arduino uno is a 32 pin microcontroller. If you took the chip from a stern node board, could you rip the software this way? I have a 32 pin socket for programming atmegas. I've never tried ripping anything though...
I'd be surprised if it was that straightforward. They might use the same physical package but it looks like the pinouts are pretty different between the one in your link and the one on the node boards.
ATmega4809 (resized).png
LPC1313FHN33 (resized).png
We used the AT89C51CC03 for most of the stuff I worked on in college, and I haven't done much with microcontrollers since then.. My job doesn't necessitate it at all, so I'm pretty rusty. I do love this stuff though, so I'm gonna keep poking around whether it's fruitful or not.
CN1 and the POGO Pads look like the programming interface on the stern boards. Not sure what kind of interface or software they might be using to do the flashing, but the MCU isn't proprietary to Stern (so even a gimp engineer like myself might be able to figure something out).
Looks like the LPC1313FHN33 in this particular package is on order with mouser (none in stock, 28 week lead time). I don't deal with component sourcing at all so idk if that's typical or not. Haven't looked at the other node board schematics but I'm assuming all of the "smart" boards use the same MCU.
Mouser: 28 week lead (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/NXP-Semiconductors/LPC1313FHN33-0155?qs=vbj%2FKoHZRAjYq%252Bs6tIYz6A%3D%3D)
Digikey: 26 week lead (https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/nxp-usa-inc/LPC1313FHN33-01-51/3430889)
Guess I understand now why they didn't want to put a third core node in Prem/LE Bond for the pop coils... Probably more motivated by the availability of node boards and components and less by the actual cost of them.
Hope all 1038 of these are going to Stern for their replacement stock and not to Whirlpool for smart fridges 
Mouser (resized).png
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Preston
Ellisville, MO
Montréal, QC