Djshakes Do you have any ideas for the issue related to this thread?
(Topic ID: 181821)
Cleveland, OH
Now that more than one coil triggers it, and ball search always does, that really points to a low 5 volts. I know you're measuring it on the power board, but it's the CPU board voltage that's the problem. Either something is wrong with the plug/pins that power the CPU, or there's a bad component on the sound and CPU board. I'm guessing the plug myself, as the game had been in a fire, correct? It's the voltage that is getting to that little chip I had you look at earlier that's important. It can be fine on the power board but very low by the time it makes it to that chip. Are the plugs corroded or brown in any way?
Quoted from CadillacMusic:that really points to a low 5 volts.
Quoted from CadillacMusic:the game had been in a fire, correct? It's the voltage that is getting to that little chip I had you look at earlier that's important. It can be fine on the power board but very low by the time it makes it to that chip. Are the plugs corroded or brown in any way?
Game had been in a fire, but the boards were replaced with new, factory boards by the previous owner. All of the female connector pins have been replaced. I can measure the voltage at the chip in question - are you referring to U-218? Is there a leg in particular where I should measure, or just put one lead to ground and use the other to probe all legs.
Quoted from terryb:You will need a decent meter to catch any fluctuations since they'll be pretty fast.
I do have a Fluke DMM so I should have an adequate tool. Where do you recommend I clip my leads to get the most accurate reading during gameplay?
Thanks, guys!
Quoted from xeneize:Where do you recommend I clip my leads to get the most accurate reading during gameplay?
Should be a test point on the mpu.
Quoted from xeneize:cadillacmusic
I concur. Last night I did more testing and it definitely only happens when more than one coil is activated. The factory spec autolaunch coil was most likely triggering it by itself as it is the most powerful coil in the machine.
Game had been in a fire, but the boards were replaced with new, factory boards by the previous owner. All of the female connector pins have been replaced. I can measure the voltage at the chip in question - are you referring to U-218? Is there a leg in particular where I should measure, or just put one lead to ground and use the other to probe all legs.
terrybI do have a Fluke DMM so I should have an adequate tool. Where do you recommend I clip my leads to get the most accurate reading during gameplay?
Thanks, guys!
I have a similar issue on my Rocky and Bullwinkle when I get multiball, or a bunch of stuff happening, I lose my DMD animations. I know that the DE boardset is similar to the Williams. Maybe that is my issue as well. Good luck.
1 month later
Update...
Quoted from CadillacMusic:u218. Pin 8 is vcc. I'd measure there.
I get the correct voltage there.
So, two weeks my wife got so tired of this game sitting there not working, she decided to google "reset issues". She came back after her extensive "research" and suggested trying another outlet in the house. Of course, I balked and insisted that dozens of games have worked just fine on that outlet/circuit. To prove a point, I ran an extension cord to the other end of the house and powered it on. Oddly enough, the game did demonstrate different behavior. Plugged in on another circuit, it only reboots during multiball and not every multiball. However, when I plugged it in on another (now the third unique) circuit it would reset constantly - even while just sitting there in attract mode. Getting three different reactions on three different circuits in my home was frustrating, to say the least.
I then proceeded to inspect the main line cord and it was not well soldered - particularly the ground. I replaced the line cord and decided to eliminate my house's wiring from the equation. So the machine got loaded up and taken to my neighbor's house to play test it there. On his circuit, ANY time that both flippers were hit at the same time, the game would reboot.
So, I think it is safe to say that the culprit is neither my house wiring or the line cord as the resets persisted even at my neighbor's.
Quoted from terryb:You really need to monitor the 5V while you're playing the game. If that's the problem it's likely only dropping under load. You will need a decent meter to catch any fluctuations since they'll be pretty fast.
I am not detecting any drop under load...the game simply reboots.
The issue DOES seem to always be triggered by the high voltage circuit/coils. Still stumped here...
If anyone has photos of the wires and molex connector going into J11, that would really help.
Last night I did some more digging as the resets always "seem" to be triggered by the activation of high voltage coil(s).
I measured voltages again and still get a solid 5.1VDC on the MPU.
However, the connector which really interested me (for several reasons which will be explained later) was J11 on the Power Board. This is where the AC voltage enters the board to pass through Bridge 1 to be converted to DC. If you look at the following image, you will note that the the voltages at J11, pins 2& 3 should be 48VAC. When I test them, I am only getting about 26VAC. On pin 1, I am only seeing 3VAC, instead of 24VAC. Why would this be? A fault in the transformer?
Interestingly, on J10, pins 1-4, instead of seeing 50VDC, I get close to 75VDC. That seems very high and surprised me when I had lower than expected AC voltage on the adjacent header. I wouldn't have been surprised to see >50VDC to account for drops when under load, but 75VDC, was not what I expected.
I am not "positive" that the 24VAC being measured at the connector to the board is even a problem, because I don't fully understand the following schematic. It shows wiring from the transformer coming in with 48VAC at J11, but then it shows it leaving J11 as 24VAC, and later providing 50VDC.
I would feel better, if I could measure 48VAC "somewhere" in the chain. When I disconnected the 1F/M2 plug coming out of the transformer (also reflected in the below image) I couldn't read any voltage on any of the pins in the socket. Maybe it had something to do with the coin door being open - don't know if it was open or not, but obviously there is usually power flowing through that connector. I will probe that plug again tonight with the coin door closed to confirm.
Another reason why I zeroed in on J11 is because there is a 2 pin molex connector coming up from the cabinet that ties wires into the ones headed into J11. Interestingly enough, it only has 3 of the four pins you would expect to see. 2 male on one side and only one female on the other. On the line with both M/F connectors, there is clear continuity of the BLK-YEL into J-11. On the line with just the female connector, BLK-ORG goes in one end, but never connects to anything on the other side. I know it sounds confusing, so I will post a photo.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can help!
Quoted from xeneize:pins 2& 3 should be 48VAC. When I test them, I am only getting about 26VAC. On pin 1, I am only seeing 3VAC, instead of 24VAC. Why would this be? A fault in the transformer?
Are you putting one lead on pin 2 and the other on pin 3?
To check the 24vac you want one lead on pin 1 and the other on pin 2. Then one lead on pin 1 and the other lead on pin 3.
Make sure all of the coils have diodes installed and the diodes test good.
1 week later
Quoted from terryb:To check the 24vac you want one lead on pin 1 and the other on pin 2.
terryb - Thanks for the direction - I don't fully understand WHY they need to be probed that way, but it worked (always open to hear WHY that is the correct process). When I probed as you indicated, I read 26.5V at both pins 2 (BLK-ORNG) & 3 (BLK-YEL) on J11. On pin 1 (YEL-BLK), I still only get 3VAC instead of 24V - is there a secret to testing that one? I still have yet to see 48VAC anywhere in that chain as detailed in the schematic.
All coils have diodes. Is there any way to effectively test them other than detaching a leg? (Sadly, I think I know the answer). Is it possible a bad diode on a switch (as opposed to a coil) could cause the resets? Ugh, I hate to think of how many diodes I would have to replace...and just to randomly troubleshoot.
Quoted from SadSack:Look for a burnt connector housing where there is resistance.
SadSack - this is easy enough to do, and good advice. Most of the more "unique" connectors look like toast. It's hard to know whether or not this is due to fire damage as the entire machine was blackened at one point, or true over heating at the connector. As fate would have it, both of the connectors in question (J11 & J17) use .084 molex pins, the only size I do not keep on hand, of course. So, order to Great Plains placed - updating the sockets and pins at those two points are my next move.
Quoted from xeneize:Another reason why I zeroed in on J11 is because there is a 2 pin molex connector coming up from the cabinet that ties wires into the ones headed into J11. Interestingly enough, it only has 3 of the four pins you would expect to see. 2 male on one side and only one female on the other. On the line with both M/F connectors, there is clear continuity of the BLK-YEL into J-11. On the line with just the female connector, BLK-ORG goes in one end, but never connects to anything on the other side. I know it sounds confusing, so I will post a photo.
As stated earlier, here are photos of that connector that runs wires into J-11 (farther up the chain) that puzzles me. You can see J-11 behind my hand holding the connector in question.
On one side (the R in my photo), BLK-OR comes from the relay board (under the PF) pictured and runs into that 2 pin connector and continues into J-11. On the other side, BLK-YEL comes from the cabinet, into that 2 pin connector, and DEAD ENDS ends in the 2 pin connector - it never continues all the way up into J-11. Is that normal?
It seems odd that BLK-YEL would not continue through that connector all the way to J-11, the same way the BLK-OR does.
Again, the schematic is not helping here.
Is there any risk to adding a wire and making the BLK-YEL a continuous run all the way up to J-11?
Quoted from xeneize:always open to hear WHY that is the correct process
In a DC circuit you have a positive and ground so readings can always be referenced to ground. In an AC circuit you have hot, neutral and ground. To get a proper reading you want to check from hot to neutral. Just the way AC works vs DC, current flows in one direction in an DC circuit and is bi-directional in an AC circuit.
Quoted from xeneize:On pin 1 (YEL-BLK), I still only get 3VAC instead of 24V - is there a secret to testing that one?
Not sure how you're taking this reading. If pin 1 to pin 2 is 24v and pin 1 to pin 3 is 24v they you're good. If you want to see the 48v then put one lead on pin 2 and one lead on pin 3.
1 week later
Quoted from SadSack:Look for a burnt connector housing where there is resistance.
SadSack Rebuilt J17, J11 and the pass through to J11 (photo in my previous post. They were all crispy and the .084 pins were not pretty.
Powered her up, got to multiball and as soon as autolaunch fired and I activated a flipper simultaneously, she reset.
I am beginning to wonder if this game is EVER going to work. 
Typically only one side of the coil is switched (via that relay) -- the other side may not return through the connector because it could be daisy chained to the other 48v coils on the playfield via wire under the PF.
Measure voltage from the far side of the coil, to the input side of the relay (ground probably.) See if you've got your 48V there.
Your missing yel-blk center tap is not unusual; they provide the center taps for 24V coils and relays, and it won't be present/in use for a 48V coil.
2 weeks later
An extra day off meant that I could finally spend some time on this...
Majdi thanks for clarifying the missing yel-blk center tap not being unusual. Your explanation makes perfect sense.
Now, that the connectors have ALL been rebuilt, I spent some time checking all switches in the matrix and all pass (before I had some leakage across a diode and several were registering as more than just the one closed).
I went through coil test to see if I could get back to a consistent fail point and once again, the game resets every time that either:
A - the auto launch coil fires (and we no there is no short from the lugs making contact with something else, coil is fresh, diode is good and correctly oriented.
B - both flippers are activated simultaneously.
Either of these events ALWAYS result in a reset/reboot and they seem to be the ONLY events that cause it.
Short of wiring up an arcade power supply and providing an independent +5V directly to the MPU, I am again at a standstill.
$100 reward is still out there if someone can help me figure this out without adding a secondary power supply.
Thanks!
Did you try the external supply to the MPU? It sounds to me like there's a transient on the 5V that's triggering the watchdog to reset. I would check the BR for the 5V using the diode mode on your meter. It's also possible that the fire damaged the transformer, so when the current is being drawn to fire the coils, it's bringing the 8VAC down as well. You already said in a previous post that when you manually fired the coil by shorting the lug to ground that the reset occurs. Plus the issue seems to vary based on the outlet it's plugged into.
If fixing the bridge and/or beefing up the cap on the input to the linear regulator doesn't help, then you might try putting your $100 toward a new transformer.
boustrophedonic - thanks for your reply! (and thanks for actually reading the previous posts!)
I was planning on adding the external power supply next - just to see if it actually stabilizes the game. Is there a reason why I should/should not do so?
The bridge rectifiers all check out "good" when tested in diode setting.
The transformer was a component that I had started questioning, but they so rarely fail, and are extremely hard to come by, so I was REALLY hoping it was not the culprit. I do seem to get the correct VAC readings when I probe for them at the appropriate points. However, this transformer does not have lugs I can probe at the base of the transformer itself.
When you mention "beefing up the cap on the input to the linear regulator", are you able to point me to the exact cap in question (or at least its general direction)? What do you recommend for a replacement cap?
One suggestion made earlier in the thread was to replace U1 on the power board as it has access to the reset line. As I have new boards installed, I was trying to avoid that. I do however a suitable replacement on hand, if the general consensus is that it makes sense to do so.
If there is a sequence in which I should try the above, I am all for taking the most logical, least invasive, approach.
So I don't have a Playboy manual, but I do have a Striker Xtreme one so hopefully they're pretty close.
First I would do the power supply experiment. Ideally you'd want to remove the power connector from CN2 and put +5, -12, and +12 onto the respective pins from the external supply. I think you might be ok with just 5V (audio wouldn't work obviously without +/-12) but you might also stress some of the analog section in that case.
Secondly, I would replace the line cord (i.e., the power cord & plug that goes to the outlet) if you haven't already.
I actually don't think it's the bridge rectifier, but I'm trying to think of ideas that don't involve spending large sums of money on a new transformer. The capacitor I'm referring to is C203 on the PDB, which is listed as 15000uF. You could try a bigger value here (or put another one in parallel with it), although again, I don't think that's likely to help unless that cap is dead, since it's already a pretty huge value to begin with.
Looking back at the thread, it looks like you mean U1 on the PDB, not MPU. While it wouldn't hurt to replace it if you are reasonably skilled, I can't imagine a scenario where it would cause this failure since (a) you already said that the failure occurs when you manually trigger the coil where U1 wouldn't be involved, and (b) RESET is hooked up to input pins on U1, not output ones. So if it were me, I wouldn't bother.
Quoted from boustrophedonic:First I would do the power supply experiment.
I will do this as soon as time permits. I already have the supply in hand and will connect it at the +5, -12, and +12V pins.
Quoted from boustrophedonic:I would replace the line cord
Already done.
Quoted from boustrophedonic:The capacitor I'm referring to is C203 on the PDB, which is listed as 15000uF.
I agree with you, and doubt the cap is the culprit, but will see if I have a larger one on hand, just in case.
Quoted from boustrophedonic:Looking back at the thread, it looks like you mean U1 on the PDB, not MPU
Correct, that was a mistake on my part. I did indeed mean the PDB. Thanks for supplying the logic behind why it seems unlikely that U1 is the problem. I definitely have a better understanding now, of how that chip works and will not jump to replace it...yet.
If the external supply works, the most likely scenario IMO is a transformer issue. The only way I can think of that would tell you for sure you need a new transformer would be to borrow an MPU & PDB off another working Whitestar game, throw them in your game and see if it still resets. If yes, then I think you have your answer.
In that case, if you'd prefer not to spend the money on a new transformer and have some skills with wiring and soldering, I do think you could replace the +5V (and optionally the +12/-12) generated by the PDB with a cheap PC power supply wired into the DBV power. I can give you more details if you think it's something you'd consider attempting.
Update!
I temporarily installed a Happ arcade power supply (PS). I plugged it into the service outlet on one end and made a molex connector on the other. The Happ PS did not have a -12V output so, I used the existing line and added it to my molex connector. So, I ended up with a +5V, +12V, and ground coming from the Happ PS and the -12V coming from the existing line in the game.
The resets STOPPED. I played half a dozen games and did everything I could to get it to reboot. Double flips, multiball, multiple coils firing at once, and it never reset. While this is very encouraging, as it was the first time since owning the game I could actually play a round from start to finish, I feel like I still don't know the root cause and am looking at installing a long-term "hack".
I do not own another Whitestar game so board swap testing is not an option.
My thoughts are that I should wire the Happ to the power switch to prevent the board from always having power while the machine is plugged in and stop troubleshooting until I can run down a transformer (although that is a pricey component to buy for the sake of troubleshooting).
Any thoughts from anyone as to whether or not I make the Happ PS install more "permanent"?
Thanks!
Congratulations, sounds like great progress! I think you could wire the Happ to the DBV connector (see https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tech-how-do-i-re-wire-this-fgy-service-outlet-to-turn-on-off-with-the-game), although I agree it's a bit of a hack & not an ideal solution. If you go that route, however, you could place a WTB ad for a used transformer and see if something turns up. Or it looks like you could get a refurbished one from K's Arcade (https://ksarcade.net/stern-transformer-010-5012-00.html). No doubt a transformer is pricey but you could probably get a fair bit back reselling it if it turned out the root cause was something else.
Quoted from xeneize:Any thoughts from anyone as to whether or not I make the Happ PS install more "permanent"?
Thanks!
Now you know to fix the power PCB.
We've established that when a particular coil on the 48V AC fires (by being shorted to ground or activated by the PDB) that it creates enough of a transient on the 5V DC to reset the game. The 48V AC is supposed to be isolated from the 5V DC until you trace back all the way to transformer. While it's possible these could be a short somewhere, it's unlikely that the game would still work if that were the case. OP has also reported different behaviors depending on which outlet the game is plugged into. To me it seems that the issue is more likely to be somewhere in the transformer area than the PDB.
OP, you could try checking the resistance across the black and white wires on the DBV connector when the game is switched off (since these directly connect to the transformer primary), although I get a fairly wide range of values from 1.3 - 2.1 Ohms on my Striker. Other sources of possible resistance in the power path are the line fuse and the line filter, so I'd probably try replacing the fuse if you haven't already. I didn't see anywhere if you checked the 8V AC voltage from the transformer, but it might be interesting to see if it's low (maybe a possibility if the secondary winding were damaged).
Quoted from xeneize:sadsack voltage at all appropriate test points reads +5.08...are you suggesting adding an alligator clip during gameplay to see "if" it dips?
I doubt you'd see it dip on the dmm. With everything I have read in this thread, the things I would do are: Repin the 48V and 5V lines in the connectors, replace the 5 and 48V bridge rectifiers and replace the filter caps on the 5V and 48V.
1 month later
Gang:
I hate to let a thread languish "unresolved". This one needs some closure and I need to make good on the $100 reward offer.
The Happ power supply was very cleanly installed and is now providing the input voltages to the MPU. Since installing it, the game has not reset once. The game has been played roughly 60 times successfully. As the boards that came with the game were new and all components tested as "good", I did not see value in swapping any out and introducing more variables to the equation. It took months just to get the game stabilized and frankly, I am just tired of messing with it as other units in my lineup require attention.
The game did get a full face lift and is cosmetically very pretty now. The main cab cleaned up well, only the head shows evidence of her "fiery" experience. For all those interested, later this week, I will post photos of her current state in the following thread:
My sincere thanks to everyone that provided insight and suggestions throughout this saga- I really appreciate your help! A special thanks to: @markmon, @cadillacmusic, @sadsack, boustrophedonic
While the game isn't truly "fixed" without the "Happ Hack", I still want to make good on my reward offer. markmon and
boustrophedonic were the two guys that zeroed in on the external power supply as a path to a solution and since that ended up being what stayed in the game so that it would be operational, I feel like the reward should be split between the two of them.
If anyone in the thread disagrees with this approach, please PM me no later than Friday. If there are no dissenters, I will then reach out to the 2 aforementioned pinsiders this weekend via PM to square things up.
Have you done anything to the side art yet?
I'm still embarrassed about the aluminum curtain fiasco. 
The side art cleaned up surprisingly well...
A fellow Pinsider graciously scanned a TON of playmate data sheets, which I would eventually like to print, stress, and use to make a decoupage finished look - truth is, it would be an amazing one off.
The head panels took the brunt of the damage (heat rises) and I started touching up the black and golds, but it was becoming too much and I feared the touch ups not blending in well enough. The head art really needs to be redone at some point.
That curtain fiasco was funny...I have to admit, I was so excited to finally figure out why I could not get the damn thing to pull back. Hopefully, futurepinhead you'll know she went to a good home when you see the photos posted later this week.
I know it will. Just make sure you post some pics when you get it done. I've been following this machine for a while, I also thought seriously about buying it when it came up for sale when you bought it, but decided at the time I didn't need another project.
Quoted from xeneize:PMs sent to the pair of PinSiders mentioned in post #82 to "finalize" reward payment.
I don't need a reward.
You can either leave the arcade power supply installed can call it done. It will work well. You can wire it up via splicing into the black and white wires that come out of the power switch box so it's switched with the game.
So if if you want to continue debugging, the next step would be to hook the game's 12v up and leave the power supply's 5v hooked up and see what happens. If it's solid swap that so the game's 5v is running and the power supply's 12v is running. Then you'll isolate it to one of the specific power circuits on the board. When you've done that, you can simply rebuild the circuit on the board starting with the input pins, input connector, the rectifier, cap, output connector, and output pins.
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