(Topic ID: 353880)

Weak Outhole Kicker

By rklynch

35 days ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 40 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 days ago by Quench
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 35 days ago

I have a Bally GOLD BALL. When I run self-test on coils, the regular outhole kicker fires the ball firmly into the shooter lane. But when I start a game, the outhole kicker goes weak and doesn't deliver the ball to the shooter lane. I looks like the length of the pulse to fire the coil shortens quite a bit when in game play. When I short the coil to ground, it fires the ball firmly into the shooter lane also so, I think the coil is fine. Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks. Bob

#2 35 days ago

The self test solenoid routine does fire the coils with a longer pulse vs game mode for most types of coils (not drop resets).

Your issue points to low voltage or the need to rebuild the assembly as that pulse in game mode should work. Disassemble and make everything is clean with no sharp edges and replace the coil sleeve. There is lube on the pivot point that is probably gummed up if it's never been rebuilt.

#3 33 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

The self test solenoid routine does fire the coils with a longer pulse vs game mode for most types of coils (not drop resets).
Your issue points to low voltage or the need to rebuild the assembly as that pulse in game mode should work. Disassemble and make everything is clean with no sharp edges and replace the coil sleeve. There is lube on the pivot point that is probably gummed up if it's never been rebuilt.

slochar thank you for your reply. Yes, the voltage checks out and I have cleaned the assembly and replaced the coil sleeve and coil with the same results. The pulse is so short that the plunger only moves about 1/3 full stroke. But, in coil test mode it moves full stroke. The coil reads about 14 ohms and I'm thinking about trying a different coil with a lower ohm rating. I'm thinking I shouldn't go lower than about 3 ohms. I do have a TIP102 installed for the driver.

#4 33 days ago
Quoted from rklynch:

The coil reads about 14 ohms and I'm thinking about trying a different coil with a lower ohm rating. I'm thinking I shouldn't go lower than about 3 ohms.

The coil should be a 27-1300 according to the manual. I would not be changing coils - 3 ohms DC is way to low for these Bally games and it will probably cause the playfield fuse to blow regularly.

Is there any chance someone has changed the plunger to a shorter one? That will cause the coil to struggle to initially pull it in. See what happens if you manually push it in 1/4" or so then activate the outhole coil in game to see how much the strength increases.

#5 33 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

The coil should be a 27-1300 according to the manual. I would not be changing coils - 3 ohms DC is way to low for these Bally games and it will probably cause the playfield fuse to blow regularly.
Is there any chance someone has changed the plunger to a shorter one? That will cause the coil to struggle to initially pull it in. See what happens if you manually push it in 1/4" or so then activate the outhole coil in game to see how much the strength increases.

Hello Quench. Yes, the original coil is a 27-1300. The wrapper was a little burnt and even though it Ohm'd out OK, I replaced it with a new one with the same results. I tried giving the kicker a "head start" by pushing it in 1/4" with no difference in plunger movement when energized. I manually moved the kickout full stroke and the plunger contacts the coil stop so I think the plunger length is OK. I had the same concern about going too low with ohms on the coil, but I did try a 3 Ohm and it works, but it provides a "lazy" delivery to the shooter lane. I have an AGC5 installed in the 45VDC circuit and it does not blow with repeated firings of the coil, but we both know this isn't correct. It should work with the 27-1300. The pulse duration is way too short. It's more like a blip than a pulse. Thank you for your suggestions.

#6 33 days ago

I doubt it's electronical or mechanical. Replace the plunger that moves the ball to the trough. The plunger becomes magnetized over time and gives week pushes and inconsistency. Had this happen many times and with other instances like Mr Hanky plunger in South Park etc...

#7 33 days ago

If it is magenetized try hitting it with a hammer. (removed from the game, you need to hit it with a bit of force)

It won't hurt and it might work!

See if you have any wiring that is frayed as well maybe there's not enough current passing to give a good kick.

#8 33 days ago

The timing pulse on the outhole coil is the same as the right slingshot.
What happens if you disconnect the Black-Yellow wire from the right slingshot coil and disconnect the Grey-White wire from the outhole coil. Then jumper the Black-Yellow wire to the outhole coil. In other words, wire the outhole coil to the slingshot drive wire and then activate the right slingshot switch in game to see if the energy at the outhole coil is different.

#9 33 days ago

I had a couple of games that I did playfield swaps on and after swap ball would not get kicked out every now and them.

Turned out the the trough that the ball sits in was not quite aligned properly. Once I re-centered that problem went away.

Take off apron and watch what the ball does. Could be something as simple as that.

#10 33 days ago

Make sure the plastic kicker is not binding as it plunges(pulls in) on any other plastic it touches. I used to take my camera and video in slo motion mode to rule out the mechanical stuff

#11 33 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

The timing pulse on the outhole coil is the same as the right slingshot.
What happens if you disconnect the Black-Yellow wire from the right slingshot coil and disconnect the Grey-White wire from the outhole coil. Then jumper the Black-Yellow wire to the outhole coil. In other words, wire the outhole coil to the slingshot drive wire and then activate the right slingshot switch in game to see if the energy at the outhole coil is different.

Hey Quench. I swapped the wires as you suggested and YES, in game play mode the outhole delivers the ball firmly into the shooter lane when the slingshot switch was made. Just like it did before in coil test mode. Great suggestion BTW. So, going a little further, I ran a new wire from J5-1 on the driver board directly to the coil to eliminate bad wiring and connections but unfortunately, I got the same weak results. When I got the game, someone had wired the knocker backwards, and nuked several components on the sol driver bd. because they also had a 5A slo-blow instead of a fast-blow fuse for the solenoid voltage. I have replaced all damaged parts including the 74LS138 IC that was physically blown up. I'm thinking about replacing the two CA3081 trans arrays also. Your thoughts?

#12 33 days ago

have you checked the number on the transistor to see it matches the others?

have you checked the kicker return spring to see it's not maybe been changed with a thicker spring?

is the plastic L shaped kick out arm free to move, like not touching the playfield cut out?

maybe polish the zinc plating on the plunger so it's real smooth?

is the raised part of the wireform of the switch that comes up from the underside possibly sitting too high and the ball is losing momentum from not easily closing the switch?

#13 32 days ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

have you checked the number on the transistor to see it matches the others?
have you checked the kicker return spring to see it's not maybe been changed with a thicker spring?
is the plastic L shaped kick out arm free to move, like not touching the playfield cut out?
maybe polish the zinc plating on the plunger so it's real smooth?
is the raised part of the wireform of the switch that comes up from the underside possibly sitting too high and the ball is losing momentum from not easily closing the switch?

I have checked everything you are referring to and it all seems fine. I have replaced the driver transistor with a TIP102 which handles more amps and voltage than the original transistors. It is a complete mystery why the outhole kicker works perfectly under "coil test" but is too weak to fully kick the ball out in game play

#14 32 days ago

Do you have another solenoid driver board to swap as a troubleshooting step?

#15 32 days ago
Quoted from Skidave:

Do you have another solenoid driver board to swap as a troubleshooting step?

Hi Skidave. Unfortunalely I do not have any boards to swap. And, I have never seen a "combo" lamp driver/solenoid driver/volt reg board before.

#16 32 days ago
Quoted from rklynch:

Hi Skidave. Unfortunalely I do not have any boards to swap. And, I have never seen a "combo" lamp driver/solenoid driver/volt reg board before.

That's right, it has that combo board. Ugh.

#17 32 days ago
Quoted from rklynch:

I'm thinking about replacing the two CA3081 trans arrays also. Your thoughts?

First thing, check the 120 ohm pull-up resistor directly after the U5 CA3801 connected to pin 1. I think the resistor is R76 but not sure since the online schematics are really poor quality. If it's significantly higher than 120 ohms then replace it.

Basically when the MPU wants to pulse the coil it selects the drive circuit via the 74LS138 which switches the respective CA3801 internal transistor OFF resulting in the 120 ohm pull-up resistor in series with diode CR7 switching ON the Q40 TIP102 driver transistor hard to activate the coil.
So R76, CR7 and Q40 are the primary drive components, oh also check the 330 ohm resistor at R87 in case it's become lower in value.
Then upstream is the CA3801 and the 74LS138.

#18 31 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

First thing, check the 120 ohm pull-up resistor directly after the U5 CA3801 connected to pin 1. I think the resistor is R76 but not sure since the online schematics are really poor quality. If it's significantly higher than 120 ohms then replace it.
Basically when the MPU wants to pulse the coil it selects the drive circuit via the 74LS138 which switches the respective CA3801 internal transistor OFF resulting in the 120 ohm pull-up resistor in series with diode CR7 switching ON the Q40 TIP102 driver transistor hard to activate the coil.
So R76, CR7 and Q40 are the primary drive components, oh also check the 330 ohm resistor at R87 in case it's become lower in value.
Then upstream is the CA3801 and the 74LS138.

Hi Quench. The 120 ohm pull-up R76 (you are correct) measures 118.7. CR7 on diode check (DMM) checks out fine just like the others. Q40 is a brand new TIP102 and checks fine. R87 measures 312.8 but within the measured range of 301.4 to 314.8 when measuring the others. I also measured C16 and came up with .0016 versus .002 specified. But several other caps measured about the same. What is the function of C16? I have also replaced the 74LS138 and both CA3081 ICs. So far nothing jumps out as being way out of spec. In self test, the program fires the outhole coil directly. But in game play it's dependent upon a switch closure that initiates a series of events through the logic that eventually fires the coil. Could there be a problem within the programming causing this? The MPU boots fine BTW.

#19 31 days ago
Quoted from rklynch:

But in game play it's dependent upon a switch closure that initiates a series of events through the logic that eventually fires the coil. Could there be a problem within the programming causing this?

No.

#20 29 days ago
Quoted from rklynch:

Q40 is a brand new TIP102

What's the reason the Q40 transistor was replaced? Swap it with the transistor at Q34 (coin lockout coil). Maybe the 'hfe' (current gain) of that TIP102 is underspec.

#22 27 days ago

An oscilloscope would now be a great tool for checking the coil pulse width and voltage. Could you loan one somewhere?

Btw, if you find one, be very careful with the scope ground connection. If both game and scope are plugged in a grounded outlet, the scope probe ground will be at the solenoid voltage ground. Use an isolation transformer or disconnect the ground pin from scope or game. A battery operated scope would be ideal.

#23 24 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

What's the reason the Q40 transistor was replaced? Swap it with the transistor at Q34 (coin lockout coil). Maybe the 'hfe' (current gain) of that TIP102 is underspec.

Interesting thought. But I already swapped the wiring between the slingshot and outhole as you suggested, and it worked great when making the slingshot contact utilizing the original driver trans for the slingshot. Am I missing something? I simply replaced Q40 to eliminate it as a possibility. I consider the TIP102 as an upgrade and have used it as a replacement for years with no problem.

#24 24 days ago

The plunger looks to have been replaced by the previous owner. The entire mechanism operates freely without binding or sticking. And, it works perfectly in coil test but not in game play.

#25 24 days ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

An oscilloscope would now be a great tool for checking the coil pulse width and voltage. Could you loan one somewhere?
Btw, if you find one, be very careful with the scope ground connection. If both game and scope are plugged in a grounded outlet, the scope probe ground will be at the solenoid voltage ground. Use an isolation transformer or disconnect the ground pin from scope or game. A battery operated scope would be ideal.

The outhole kicker works great in coil test but won't kick the ball out in game play. The voltage is the same in either mode. The pulse width is visually shorter in game play. I do have a scope but I am fairly certain that it would only verify what is visually obvious. In coil test it is a "pulse" but in game play it is a "blip".

#26 24 days ago

The outhole kicker and most other coils are pulsed around 33ms during game play. All coils are pulsed around 116ms during solenoid test mode.
This is the same coil pulse behavior with every classic Bally..

Your problem is weak drive circuitry. You already proved it by running the slingshot drive circuit to the outhole coil which worked fine. I use TIP102 transistors too but they are a heavily counterfeited part. Unless you bought yours from a reputable merchant you don't know what characteristics yours have.

Since you have a scope you can measure the pulse over the signal stream from the output of the 74LS138 through to the coil lug and work out where the issue is. It comes down to how motivated you are in tracing it down.

#27 23 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

The outhole kicker and most other coils are pulsed around 33ms during game play. All coils are pulsed around 116ms during solenoid test mode.
This is the same coil pulse behavior with every classic Bally..
Your problem is weak drive circuitry. You already proved it by running the slingshot drive circuit to the outhole coil which worked fine. I use TIP102 transistors too but they are a heavily counterfeited part. Unless you bought yours from a reputable merchant you don't know what characteristics yours have.
Since you have a scope you can measure the pulse over the signal stream from the output of the 74LS138 through to the coil lug and work out where the issue is. It comes down to how motivated you are in tracing it down.

Quench, something interesting happened when I R&R'd the MPU. I got the kicker to fire properly a few times but then it quit. I reseated J1 through J4 on the MPU several more times but could not get it to fire properly again. The connectors are the insulation displacement type and there is evidence that the previous owner has used a screwdriver to press the wires into their "grooves" trying to get better connection. I'm going to try replacing J4 with a molex crimp style connector. These insul/disp type connectors have given me trouble in the past. Your thoughts?

#28 23 days ago
Quoted from rklynch:

These insul/disp type connectors have given me trouble in the past. Your thoughts?

The momentary solenoid signals from the MPU board to the solenoid driver board are binary encoded. There is not one single signal responsible for the outhole kicker only. A suspect connection at MPU J4 would result in a few solenoids being weak. While only one of the binary encoded signals is required to go low for the outhole kicker, that same signal is used for the knocker and both the left and lower pop-bumpers.
If you change J4 I wish you luck but I don't see it logically affecting the performance of only the outhole kicker.

#29 23 days ago

have you checked the rear of boards for any dry solder joins?

personally if your going to repin J4 then repin J1, J2 & J3.

it is possible the previous owner has severed some strands of wire by pushing on the IDC's and in effect reduced the current and increased the resistance causing your weak kickout issue.

if any IDC (Insulation Displacement Connector) looks suspect I suggest replacing them all with crimp type as you have considered.

#30 23 days ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

have you checked the rear of boards for any dry solder joins?
personally if your going to repin J4 then repin J1, J2 & J3.
it is possible the previous owner has severed some strands of wire by pushing on the IDC's and in effect reduced the current and increased the resistance causing your weak kickout issue.
if any IDC (Insulation Displacement Connector) looks suspect I suggest replacing them all with crimp type as you have considered.

Rikoshay, yes I think I will replace all four connectors just to eliminate them as a possibility. Good suggestion. I am not a big fan of the .1 IDCs based upon my history of them.

#31 22 days ago
Quoted from rklynch:

I think I will replace all four connectors just to eliminate them as a possibility.

MPU J1 is for the lamp and display circuits. J2 is for the playfield switch harness, J3 is for the cabinet switch harness. Changing them from IDC connectors to crimp connectors might make you feel good but they have nothing to do with the outhole kicker performance. To be clear, the outhole switch does not in any way control the outhole kicker coil pulse. Infact the game activates the outhole kicker to serve the ball into play without even checking if the ball is still sitting on the outhole switch. The purpose of the outhole switch is merely to signify the end of the current ball in play.

IDC connectors are ok so long as they haven't been abused. It sounds like your J4 has been so replacing it is worthy.

#32 21 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

MPU J1 is for the lamp and display circuits. J2 is for the playfield switch harness, J3 is for the cabinet switch harness. Changing them from IDC connectors to crimp connectors might make you feel good but they have nothing to do with the outhole kicker performance. To be clear, the outhole switch does not in any way control the outhole kicker coil pulse. Infact the game activates the outhole kicker to serve the ball into play without even checking if the ball is still sitting on the outhole switch. The purpose of the outhole switch is merely to signify the end of the current ball in play.
IDC connectors are ok so long as they haven't been abused. It sounds like your J4 has been so replacing it is worthy.

Quench good point. I was definitely going to replace J4, but the other IDCs have been tampered with also and thought it might be a good preventive measure. But, I want to thank you and everyone for submitting suggestions to help correct this problem. I have been instructed to cease working on it as the owner has traded the game and will be retrieving it shortly. I guess it will remain a mystery.

THANK YOU PINSIDE COMMUNITY FOR YOUR HELP

#33 18 days ago

by some weird coincidence i have this fault on a gen 1 zaccaria, infuriating! because boards are harder to find unless you drop some coin on pinball solutions in europe, i am going for freaky memory stuff that a reset and check and set each value. sometimes the simplest faults in appearance make you sink time into them. the driver boards have a data bus on them and you could get pulse truncation with a chip not associated with the one you think. time to cro it.

#34 13 days ago
Quoted from jwgent:

by some weird coincidence i have this fault on a gen 1 zaccaria, infuriating! because boards are harder to find unless you drop some coin on pinball solutions in europe, i am going for freaky memory stuff that a reset and check and set each value. sometimes the simplest faults in appearance make you sink time into them. the driver boards have a data bus on them and you could get pulse truncation with a chip not associated with the one you think. time to cro it.

jwgent. Yes, extremely frustrating. Good luck...mine will remain a mystery.

#35 13 days ago
Quoted from rklynch:

mine will remain a mystery.

Doesn't need to be. I gave you suggestions but you didn't follow through.

#36 10 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

Doesn't need to be. I gave you suggestions but you didn't follow through.

I have found that your advice is quite good. You know your stuff for sure.

#37 9 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

Doesn't need to be. I gave you suggestions but you didn't follow through.

Hard to follow through when the game is gone.

#38 6 days ago

funnily i moved a step forward with another cpu, the solenoid test on a good cpu the solenoids pulse in a slower fashion
with the cpu in question they pulse faster there fore i think the trigger is too quick resulting in a weak kick
also noticing the slings and pos weaker too, but out hole is first to pulse when a game starts
yet to investigate further but maybe a divide down clock chip has failed and giving an overall faster clock pulse
have not confirmed this as i put it down to concentrate on other things

#39 6 days ago

The timing for solenoid pulse length is derived from the zero crossing interrupt not from the clock speed of the CPU. Now if your zero cross were over activating yes that would cause issues in the timing.

#40 6 days ago
Quoted from jwgent:

funnily i moved a step forward with another cpu

Your Zaccaria system is completely different to the Bally game in question here. You should start your own separate thread.

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