(Topic ID: 354873)

Stardust debug

By sander9971

15 days ago


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#1 15 days ago

I just purchased a 1971 Stardust. The machine is a complete basket case and it is making me nuts. I fixed the credit unit and cleaned the bonus unit but recently a really strange issue started occuring and I don't know where to start. First, I have to say the other steppers are not in great shape - the player unit isn't moving. While the ball count unit appears to be mechanically ok, when I manually trigger it the ball count isn't in order, I believe (don't quote me) it is something like 1,3,4,5,2 - but consistently - but it never moves during a game. The player unit isn't moving at all and the coin unit also needs to be cleaned.

While the scoring and ball/player count is still a known mess - recently when the ball sits in the outhole outside of a game (like on initial power up) - all of the kickers (except the outhole with the ball) start kicking, along with the down post. This wasn't happening before and I'm not sure where to start. If I click the button to start a game it goes away and kicks the ball out.

Another minor issue - I disassembled and cleaned all of the score reels, but some of those have broken EOS switches - anyone know where I could get like 3 of those?

Thank you in advance. I have the schematic but its a little daunting.

#2 15 days ago
Quoted from sander9971:

some of those have broken EOS switches - anyone know where I could get like 3 of those?

Can you remake the broken switches with parts from here?
https://www.pbresource.com/pfswitch.htm#common

#3 15 days ago

Thanks. Had asked Lou if he had anything that could be made to work and he said no. That being said, if they have something that could replace the long blade I could. The short blade is good but the long blades are broken off.

Still wondering about this eject issue at gameover when the ball is in the outhole. Its making me nuts. I have made progress getting the machine working but it has so many major issues.

#4 15 days ago

the EOS switches on these score reels aren't too important assuming the switch is open. If the end of the blade broke so the switch can't open, that would be a problem.

worse case when one is broken open is the game may not score if the scoring switch activation was really brief.

check the backglass for where the ball in play lights are ... they aren't always in order left-to-right.

I'd get all the stepper units behaving first. If you have the game in an odd state that isn't normally possible, you may spend a bunch of time chasing things that aren't problems. e.g. a ball sitting in the outhole may power the outhole relay, which will turn on the score motor on and if it stays running, the down post coil will keep firing.

depending on what "all the kickers" means, there may be an explanation or you may have stuck switches or a short.

#5 15 days ago

Yes, the EOS switches are open. But as you mention, the scoring is flakey - a quick score doesn't hold the solenoid in long enough to progress the reel.

I do notice that the kickers work fine when the bonus is at 2000 or more but won't kick when its at 1000. I'm wondering if thats a misadjusted switch and if that same issue is why all of the kickers are kicking when the outhole switch is depressed under the apron in the front.

I know you are right about insuring the steppers are all working. The only one that is working perfect is the one that counts credits as I completely rebuilt it. That being said its the least important.

I am just a little concerned if I keep touching lots of things at once I will introduce more issues. The score reels came out pretty good. Its a big project taking all 16 apart and cleaning them in the ultrasonic cleaner.

#6 15 days ago

and by the way, you are right about the ball order - its not in order on the backglass - go figure.

#7 15 days ago
Quoted from sander9971:and by the way, you are right about the ball order - its not in order on the backglass - go figure.

I learned that the same way you just did

Quoted from sander9971:

Yes, the EOS switches are open. But as you mention, the scoring is flakey - a quick score doesn't hold the solenoid in long enough to progress the reel.

if you need to replace the switches, I don't think any of the parts suppliers have them premade. Part number is sw-2u-12. I'd need to look at some at the pacific pinball museum on monday to see if the generic switch blades/contacts can be made to work.

Quoted from sander9971:

I do notice that the kickers work fine when the bonus is at 2000 or more but won't kick when its at 1000. I'm wondering if thats a misadjusted switch and if that same issue is why all of the kickers are kicking when the outhole switch is depressed under the apron in the front.

I'm not sure what "kickers" means. Williams usually called the slingshot kickers ... kickers.

if you mean the eject holes at the top of the playfield, then yup, if the score motor keeps running those will keep firing when the outhole relay is powered if the bonus unit is stuck at reset.

what's supposed to happen when the bonus unit is reset and the ball is in the outhole is the score motor runs and steps up the bonus unit once. The ball should also kick over to the shooter.

when you turn the game on the game over relay is supposed to trip (if not already tripped), and that should prevent the outhole relay from powering. This should happen before you do something to cause the lock relay to power, like hitting the left flipper button or coin/crediting the game.

sounds like the game over relay is not tripping when it should so you get odd behavior when turning on the game.

the bonus unit has "pin switches" that poke out over the metal ratchet/gear and get shoved by a peg when the bonus unit is reset and not reset. Make sure the switch works right and the blade is hitting the nylon sleeve on the peg, not the metal top of the peg.

#8 15 days ago

Thank you, extremely helpful. Yes, I was confused what to call each. There are two slingshot kickers on the playfield and there is the outhole that kicks the ball out to the shooter lane. All three are misbehaving, and you are correct - the machine has issues going into gameover often. When the ball is in the outhole and initially powered on, right after triggering the left flipper it starts kicking the slingshot kickers and the down post. The outhole itself doesn't kick. Then if I reset the game, it kicks the ball into the shooter lane but if it lands in a slingshot kicker it doesn't eject if the bonus is 1000. I'm heading out of town for work for a couple of weeks but I will definitely take your advice and get the steppers working. On the ball advance, it only advances manually now - but does so freely. I'm assuming its because of the other steppers not moving freely? I have the unit that counts credits, bonus unit, and ball unit moving freely. The credit and bonus units appear to be moving up and down (although I will look at the switches on the bonus unit).

While I know how to read an electronics schematic, pinball schematics are another story. Its unfortunate my father is no longer around, he had a pinball route in the 70's and was excellent at debugging this stuff. Its funny, in the 70's he built automation systems for the movie theatres that were entirely based on relays and timer circuits. 50 years later, these machines still somehow work.

#9 14 days ago

the slingshots are the kicking arms under the plastics just above the flippers. If those are firing you probably have multiple issues.

the two holes at the top of the playfield williams calls "eject holes" on the schematic. The outhole is also generically an eject hole, but they do call it the outhole.

terminology is kinda vague ... eject holes = kickout holes = saucers depending on manufacturer, who is talking and what they'd been drinking

slingshot almost always just mean a vertical arm that kicks the ball sideways from behind a rubber ring.

tmi
----

if you're interpreting the schematic, hang in there ... it'll start making sense as you plod thru it. For example, if your ball in play lights don't work, the typical approach is:

1] find those lamps on the schematic. They are around A-3

2] note the thing controlling the lamps is called the "ball count unit"

3] try manually stepping the ball count unit and verify the lights work. If not, make sure no other switches need to also be closed.

4] if ya conclude the unit/lamps are fine but the unit isn't stepping, then ya look for the "ball count step-up" coil. wms is nice and tell you in a chart that it's at F-8 on the schem. Then you try and figure out what the circuit means and you start poking around with a voltmeter or jumper wire to find issues.

in the ball count unit case, what the circuit says is:

1] the ball count unit will step up when the last enabled player is active (player unit keeps track of current player, coin unit how many players enabled)

2] the step up pulse is coming from score motor cam 1A switch. The switch stacks on score cams 1-6 go down/up in timed sequence, so 1A will happen quickly after the motor turns on.

3] the ball index relay switch needs to close

4] if you have an extra ball, a switch opens to disable stepping the unit

5] an outhole relay switch needs to be closed

the ball index relay is wtf #1, so you go find that (chart says F-17) and you'll see that you either have to tilt the game or score 10/100/1000 points. So conclusion is the ball count unit won't normally move until you score some points. This was the EM way of doing a ball save ... if you shot the ball and scored nothing, you got the ball back to try again.

the fun part is when is the outhole relay switch at schem C-8 actually closed (connecting yellow to R-O)? It can get kinda ambiguous figuring out in what machine state the schematic is drawn. While there's some rules of thumb that usually apply, ya get bitten enough times to either go look further in the schem, look in the game or just make some logical assumptions.

in this case, the outhole relay powers when a ball closes the outhole switch, and stays powered until score motor 6B switch opens (remember from above that will happen after 1A closes/opens). Since powering the outhole relay runs the score motor, you run into wtf #2. How can a ball be sitting in the outhole to power the outhole relay, maybe get kicked to the shooter and score points before 6B opens?

it can't, so either the outhole relay has to hold itself powered until points are scored, or the ball count unit doesn't step up until the ball drains.

you can go find that stuff on the schem, and the lamp part of the schematic gives a big hint ... the ball in play 1 light is on when the unit is reset, so on this game ball in play steps when the ball for the last enabled player drains AND they've scored points without getting an extra ball.

note some games would reset to have no ball in play lights lit, and the unit would step up once when points were scored, the ball was kicked to the shooter, or ball was shot. You always want to use the schematic for the game, and if you only have a schem for a similar game, be skeptical.

#10 13 days ago

On score motor cams 5 & 6, the top 2 blades on each switch are the normally closed portions of the make/break switches. These 2 normally closed switches are the shared relay hold circuits release switches. Clean and check for strong switch closure.
On the index cam, the top 2 blades will connect when the switch stack lifts off of a home position.
Clean and check this switch along with the normally closed switches on this switch stack.

#11 13 days ago

A schematic error is at location F8 we’re ball coin step up should read ball count step up. Make correction to your schematic.

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