(Topic ID: 354840)

R2D2 and DS problem and F7 blows, BUT not always

By Falc0nWing

18 days ago


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  • Latest reply 13 days ago by Falc0nWing
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    #1 18 days ago

    Hello Guys! I bought a DESW few months ago and it had a lot of issues. Finally the machine boots up again and game can be started. Hovewer: R2d2 and DS turning constantly, even in attract mode, VUK not working, DS door does not open. My guess maybe a logic IC problem?
    Also the F7 fuse goes out, BUT not always. If I have the backbox open it is visaible there is a little spark on the fuse when I switch on, but the game can be started. Usually it blows on the third switch on. Any ideas much appreciated!!

    #2 18 days ago

    How good a technician are you?

    Pinballs that age can accumulate quite a list of problems. If your machine hasn't been 'shopped' in the past decade or so, it might be worth your while to bring it to a professional who goes through your machine, replaces the rubber, the bulbs, fixes the boards, fixes the mechanisms and delivers the machine back to you as a machine that has been brought up to it's potential...

    But you CAN do all that work by yourself.

    R2D2 turning constantly.

    Death Star turning constantly.

    Blowing F7.

    If a coil holds in, or a motor turns on before your game boots (you turn on the machine and it's activated immediately), the usual cause is blown transistors.

    Your manual is here:

    https://www.ipdb.org/files/2358/Data_East_1992_Star_Wars_Manual.pdf

    Schematics are here:

    https://www.ipdb.org/files/2358/Data_East_1992_Star_Wars_Schematic_Diagrams_English_Manual_pages_46_69.pdf

    Manual PDF page 33 shows the wiring of the death star motor and the R2D2 motor.

    It says that Q24, on the CPU board is what turns the relay on to activate these motors.

    It's usually the output transistor that fails, once in a while the predriver. I'd replace Q24 with a TIP102 and see if that fixes your problem. Let us know if it doesn't.

    F7 is on the power supply board. ALL Data East Power supply boards are suffering capacitor failure. The easiest path to get this repair done is to buy this kit:

    https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/CAPKITDE-02

    I'd replace C1, C2, C3 and C7. The kit has other caps, but since they are VERY unlikely to be bad, I don't replace any others unless I know I've got a problem. If you want to look up the values of those caps and buy just the caps you need from Mouser or Digi-key feel free.

    But F7 blowing is usually due to two possibilities:

    You are putting a 1/2 Amp FAST BLOW fuse in where a 1/2 Amp SLOW BLOW is what is specified. (*Raises hand* I've done this!)

    Or...

    Your high voltage section has a problem. Measure your display voltages. Are they all within normal ranges? Anything high (or low)?

    The reason I suggested getting your power supply board recapped is that the bad caps leak electrolyte, and can compromise circuitry on the board. When you replace the caps, you'll see if you need special attention to the power supply.

    Let us know what you find!

    #3 18 days ago

    VUK not working.

    First check to see if it's broken a wire off the coil terminal. Lotsa vibration here. While you are looking at the coil, check to see that it doesn't have a burnt wrapper. Burnt wrapper means replace the coil. You could measure the resistance of the coil. Less than 2 ohms is bad and you should replace the coil, and then replace the transistors you find bad. Bad coils take out transistors... always.

    The VUK has two output transistors associated with it. On the PPB is a TIP36 transistor Q3. It should read like the other transistors on the PPB, so it's easy to test.

    The Q3 transistor on the PPB is run by Q42 on the power driver board. It's replaceable by a TIP102 on the CPU board.

    To find this out, I'm still looking at PDF page 33 in the Manual.

    Finally, the PPB is well known to have cracked solder connections on the back of the board. I'll pull the PPB and reflow the solder to all the connector pins whenever I'm working seriously on a machine this age.

    Death star 'Bar Motor' (door) not working. While this could be Q27 on the CPU, or the 27VAC wires supplying power to the relay, the overwhelming cause of this is cracked solder joints on the bottom of the relay board.

    Pull the relay board, and reflow the solder to everything.

    If that doesn't solve it, post here, and we'll help you with the next step of your troubleshooting.

    When faced with such a variety of problems your analytical mind naturally wonders what is common to all these problems...

    But in pinball, that natural inclination frequently sends you down the wrong path.

    "I've got eight bulbs all connected to the red wire, and they all aren't working... IT HAS TO BE THE RED WIRE!!!"... Nope. You have eight individual bulbs out. *grins*

    I don't think you've got a single problem, I think you've got a lot of individual problems, the natural result of lack of maintenance over several years, and a machine that is 30+ years old and was designed to work for six years.

    Let us know what you find!

    #4 18 days ago

    Im a rookie mechanic but not afraid to learn and I learn from the pinside forums a lot, previous topics and also people who has patience to help rookies, so thanks for your detailed answers! I am able to detect basic failures and changes transistors f.ex on the boards, but learnt everything on pinballs.
    I checked the transistors on the MPU and PPB, all seems good. How can I check without a logic probe if the 7408 ICs above the transistors and the PIA above them is good?
    High voltage: the voltage is good coming from the transformator. Previously it was blowing the F7 fuse immediately after switching on even with everything else disconnected (no display, MPU, PPB and sound board connected). I removed the cables, checked the connectors and somewhow, dont kno why now it does not blow the fuse immediately, just after approx every 3rd switch on.

    #5 18 days ago
    Quoted from Falc0nWing:

    I checked the transistors on the MPU and PPB, all seems good. How can I check without a logic probe if the 7408 ICs above the transistors and the PIA above them is good?

    If the output transistor is good, the first thing I'd do is disconnect the CN12 in the bottom lower left corner of the CPU and power up the game. This will probably stop the motors from running on power up, and confirms that your relay contacts aren't stuck.

    Then it's a matter of following the signal up the schematic.

    Noted arcade and electronics repair school technician Randy Fromm suggests this kind of board repair technique:

    Identify the problem. Narrow the problem to a particular area. Get a schematic, and photocopy/enlarge that section of the schematic.

    Your schematics are here:

    https://www.ipdb.org/files/2358/Data_East_1992_Star_Wars_Schematic_Diagrams_English_Manual_pages_46_69.pdf

    PDF page 11 has the section with CN12 and the solenoid drivers you are looking at.

    Test a part. For instance the output transistor. It tests good. Highlight it on your schematic. Or it tests bad, replace it and highlight it on your schematic. Test it's connection with CN12. Highlight that wire on your schematic. Test it's connection with RA25. Highlight that wire on your schematic. Test it's connection with SOL Ground. Highlight that on your schematic. Test that RA25 has correct resistance (2.7k) between pin 5 and pin 1 (ground). Highlight it on the schematic.

    Keep testing and highlighting, replacing parts you have difficulty testing or bad parts as you go. When the area of the schematic you are looking at is all yellow, you've got the problem fixed.

    For 7408's I test by substitution. I clip the old one out, put in a socket, and put a replacement in. It's a bit rare for it to be the 7408's but I have seen them in sockets on a couple of machines, and I've replaced them once or twice myself.

    If it's the PIA, I personally would consider this fairly advanced board repair, and because of that I personally would buy a logic probe (I got a Radio Shack one off ebay fairly cheaply) and a 'LEON CHIP' to do advanced board repair. For problems this deep in the board it really helps to have the right tools, and once I started using a logic probe and Leon's chip, my troubleshooting got a LOT better. You could just clip the PIA out, put in a socket, and put a new one in.

    Quote: High voltage: the voltage is good coming from the transformer.

    Yeah, but the high voltage SECTION of the power supply can have problems with capacitors and circuitry that draws too much power through the fuse.

    Problems here can show themselves at the voltages measured at the display power plug, so measure those voltages there and see if they are correct, get your power supply board recapped, and if it still is blowing the fuse, rebuild the HV section.

    Keep at it, this stuff isn't particularly easy, but each problem has a solution.

    Good luck!

    #6 17 days ago

    I replaced the PIA and the IC above it (they were already socketed by me because of previous boot problem) and R2 and DS started to work as they should.
    I switched back the IC above the PIA and again it was bad, so I was happy I found the problem. I put again the new one and it was fine. Started a game a realized my shooter button not working (was working yesterday) and the game does not recognize f.ex if the ball goes down. So my guess is that there is a problem switch section somewhere. Also at ball search DS door is not going down.

    Ahh, this is a messy board..

    The F7 blows on the 3rd or 4th switch on, at the moment of the switch on. If it is not blown at the switch on, then it works.

    #7 16 days ago

    Glad you are getting these problems knocked out!

    Of course, be able to get into switch test. Get the test mode working, then find out what switches. Given the extensive work you've been doing with PIA's on this board, it could be a lot of places losing a lot of signals, so first of all, verify your symptoms. All switches out? Including service switches? Just some switches?

    DS bar gate not going down. What does coil test say? If you can't activate it in coil test that'll tell you something. (Usually it tells you that you've still got something disconnected at the Relay board).

    F7 - You are using the correct fuse, 1/2 amp slow blow. You have replaced the capacitors which are failing on EVERY SINGLE Data East power supply. You have verified the -98V, -110V, +68V, +12V, +5V on CN5 at the Power supply.

    After that, you are still 'bending the fuse' or 'it blows once in a while on start-up'.

    Sadly, you might be looking at a display glass that is drawing too much power. Test by replacing it.

    The only other option for F7 blowing once in a while is a rebuild of the HV section of your power supply board, but if the voltages test good, I'd hesitate to say that's your problem.

    Keep letting us know what you find!

    #8 14 days ago

    I checked the cpu and there is only 4,25V. The other ICs ha 4,85V same as I measure on the rings top of the board.

    #9 13 days ago
    Quoted from Falc0nWing:

    I checked the cpu and there is only 4,25V. The other ICs ha 4,85V same as I measure on the rings top of the board.

    Hehe.

    WHERE are you measuring this voltage?

    I go to the 'bypass' yellow capacitor right by the chip I'm concerned about (the CPU). I put my red meter lead on one side of the little yellow bead, my black meter lead on the other side of the little yellow bead. Unless board repair has been done poorly, the CPU will see this voltage.

    It looks like C95, just to the right of the CPU is where I'd measure voltage.

    #10 13 days ago

    c95 is 4,87. I measured on the top left and bottom right leg of the CPU

    #11 13 days ago
    Quoted from Falc0nWing:

    c95 is 4,87. I measured on the too left and bottom right leg of the CPU

    Many chips observe the design convention of having the 'diagonal corners' be power (VCC) and ground, but it's just a convention... not a rule.

    Each chip has it's own datasheet where you can check the pinouts.

    This is the datasheet for the 6802/6808:

    https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf-down/M/C/6/MC6808-Motorola.pdf

    VCC (+5v) is on pin 8, Ground (VSS) is on pin 1 and pin 21.

    My personal pet peeve is LM339 chips. I just can't keep in my memory where power and ground are for that chip... and I have to look it up every time!

    #12 13 days ago

    R2 and Ds rotate was a cold solder problem it seems.

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