(Topic ID: 177960)

Ground Row Short

By SealClubber

7 years ago


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Shadow Matrix (resized).jpg
10-opto U1 U3.jpg
10 opto R1.jpg
probe U.jpg
U cpu.png
row1.jpg
Row 1 CPU89.jpg
#1 7 years ago

Posting this here to see if I am on the right track as I have never had to work on the switch matrix for an WPC game before.
My Shadow is reporting a Ground Short R1 for Switch 51, Brick Wall drop target down (white-brown wire). The switch is activating fine by the mechanism and is showing continuity when not activated so I guess it is a Normally closed? All solenoids work in test mode.
Next I unplugged the solenoid and switch, game still reports the short.
I disconnected the J3 plug from the board near the flippers. Still reports the error. I see nothing on this board which looks wrong and the diodes test good.
I then disconnected J207 and J209 from the MPU and it still reports the issue. So am I to assume that the problem is on the MPU?

#2 7 years ago

Check the LM339 on the opto board on the bottom of the pf. Swap it out with the one in your JM and test, I'm not sure they're the same though.

Edit: looks like they're different

#3 7 years ago

I might have a spare LM339 chip. I will check, thanks.

#4 7 years ago

IIRC...there are 3 of them on that board. On mine it was the left chip that was locked up.

#5 7 years ago
Quoted from SealClubber:

I then disconnected J207 and J209 from the MPU and it still reports the issue. So am I to assume that the problem is on the MPU?

Disconnect J212 as well, the Gun-trigger and Slam-tilt are here on row1.

Still have row1 short ?, then inspect cpu-board.

#6 7 years ago
Quoted from zaza:

Disconnect J212 as well, the Gun-trigger and Slam-tilt are here on row1.
Still have row1 short ?, then inspect cpu-board.

Zaza to the rescue...ur da man Z. I guess by the cpu you mean he should inspect U20 right?

#7 7 years ago

No, when all matrix connectors are disconnected, U20 does not have any influence on the rows.
I'm more on U18 now or battery corrosion on traces above U18/19
Row 1 CPU89.jpgRow 1 CPU89.jpg

1 month later
#8 7 years ago

Sorry about the delay. I have been away and then busy. I finally got a day off to mess with it.
Removing J212 didn't change anything.
I removed the board. I see no corrosion, shorts or solder cracks. Batteries have been off the board since I owned the game.
I tested U18 with a MM and it seems ok, but I am no expert. I tested for Ohms and diode test. All the +inputs were similar, all -inputs similar and all outputs had similar readings.
I guess I will order a new switch and LM339 and see where that takes me.

#9 7 years ago

You can perform some tests with machine powered-up if you want.

It could be powerdriverboard with problems on U7 and U8 opto-coupler. Boot the machine without the small ribbon-cable between CPU- and PDB and go into switch-test. Still GND-SHORT ROW 1 ?

And you can measure the voltages on input and output of the lm339.
remove all switch matrix ROW cables from CPU (J208, J209, J212)
power up machine and measure -> red voltages
2nd time with row 1 jumpered to GND -> blue voltages.

row1.jpgrow1.jpg

#10 7 years ago

zaza,

Quoted from zaza:

It could be powerdriverboard with problems on U7 and U8 opto-coupler. Boot the machine without the small ribbon-cable between CPU- and PDB and go into switch-test. Still GND-SHORT ROW 1 ?

Still reporting ground short row 1.

Quoted from zaza:

And you can measure the voltages on input and output of the lm339.
remove all switch matrix ROW cables from CPU (J208, J209, J212)
power up machine and measure -> red voltages
2nd time with row 1 jumpered to GND -> blue voltages.

Exactly where should I put the leads of my MM for these two tests?

#11 7 years ago

Multimeter set to Vdc, range 20V or autorange
BLACK pen to GND, could be a screw where CPU-board is mounted.

1. RED pen to R51. Both sides of resistor should give 12Volt
2. RED pen to U18 pin13. ( "pink 1" in picture ) should give 5Volt. U13 pin11 should have same value.

attach a wire from GND to J209-1 (lower right on board) and measure same points again:
1. RED pen on R51 should give now 0.8Volt
2. RED pen to U18 pin 13 should give now 0.1 Volt

It seems that some place the signal is already LOW where it shouldn't.

#12 7 years ago
Quoted from zaza:

1. RED pen to R51. Both sides of resistor should give 12Volt
2. RED pen to U18 pin13. ( "pink 1" in picture ) should give 5Volt. U13 pin11 should have same value.

These are good

Quoted from zaza:

attach a wire from GND to J209-1 (lower right on board) and measure same points again:
1. RED pen on R51 should give now 0.8Volt
2. RED pen to U18 pin 13 should give now 0.1 Volt

I get .721 and .077 respectively

#13 7 years ago

I own a logic probe but am not sure how to use it

#14 7 years ago

That means that lm339 works as it should.

Did you measure U13-11 as well? same value as U18-13 ?
or with machine OFF there should be continuity between those 2 pins.

To be sure that data DO is ok on the cpu-board, can you do a test, for example activate lamp #1 in 'single lamp-test'.
And a continuity test from U12-8 to U13-9 (purple line)
And in switch test T.1 , verify only ROW1 is shorted.

U cpu.pngU cpu.png

If all have continuity, data D0 is working then U13 is most likely the problem.
After these measurements and checks, a logic probe won't give more information.

#15 7 years ago

U13p11 had same voltage as U18p13. I will check others.

#16 7 years ago

I can run through all the lamps. I am only tracking the ground row 1 short and switch 51 short.
I have no connectivity between U12p8 and U13p9

#17 7 years ago
Quoted from SealClubber:

I have no connectivity between U12p8 and U13p9

Any battery corrosion that could have eaten a trace ?

you can solder a jumper from U12-8 to U13-9 and check the switch matrix in game.

#18 7 years ago

No corrosion that I can see. The batteries have been off the board at least 5 years so old corrosion could have done it but I don't see any. Won't know unless I remove the chip if there is any underneath.

#19 7 years ago

A jumper will do so you can leave the chip in place.

an extra check for continuity for data-DO on other chips (purple line) to be sure and it should be ready to play.

I will check tomorrow for updates

#20 7 years ago

Thank you very much for the help.

#21 7 years ago

Wait with the jumper, this is WPC-s and has different layout.

will have a look at it deeper tomorrow

edit:
for now, re-seat the security-chip U22 and test the switch matrix again.

#22 7 years ago

Pulled U22 and reseated it. No change to test.

#23 7 years ago

Gathered some interesting points where you can use the logic probe.
These are pulsing data signals communicating around the security chip.

probe U.jpgprobe U.jpg

Nothing connected to the switch-matrix connectors = J209-1 HIGH, a jumper to J209-1 = LOW
5 out of 6 have a lit red+green led and only R0 has only green led lit when J209-1 is High

Maybe this gives some new information but the communication around security is very different from older WPC.

You can use C31 to hook up probe. careful not to touch other conducting traces/solder spots.
Also interesting to know is whether or not COLUMN 1 is working in the switch test. Activate any switch in column 1.

#24 7 years ago

All the switches work except those in Row1.

#25 7 years ago

ok, only if the logic probe show different signals, it might give clues.

#26 7 years ago

J208, J209 and J212 removed.
With the logic probe attached to c31, and probe touched to J209p1, I get a solid red triangle.
With the J209p1 jumpered to ground, the probe at J209p1 gives a solid green triangle with beep.

#27 7 years ago

Could the problem be on that opto interconnect board under the playfield? How would I test that without a spare board? Unfortunately, I sold my JM so I don't have another board to throw in there.

#28 7 years ago
Quoted from SealClubber:

the probe at J209p1 gives....

That is correct, one time a HIGH 12V (pull-up) and the other time a LOW (jumper GND to J209-1)

How about the R0 signal at U13-9 ( = U22-18 and U14-9 ) ? see picture post #23 magenta legs
And A0 signal at U22-10 ( = U24-18 and U23-2 ) cyan legs

If there is a problem with one of the IC's, it is difficult to determine which one is the problem because in each case 3 ic's are connected to the same data line. Possible need test software to find out.

Quoted from SealClubber:

Could the problem be on that opto interconnect board under the playfield?

That is always possible but you got still the "GND-SHORT" message when it was disconnected, correct ?
If GND-SHORT disappears when opto-board got disconnected, then we can stop looking at the CPU-board.

#29 7 years ago

Sorry, the ground short message goes away. It also goes away when I disconnect the J3 connector on the Opto Board. I get another message such as Check Fuses and a several switches not working which is correct since they are disconnected.
I feel like an idiot now.
But the short message is still there even though I disconnect the switch 51.

#30 7 years ago

Well, I'm actually glad it is not the CPU.

since only ROW1 has a problem I would say that U1 pin13 stays LOW all the time on the 10-opto board.
You can measure with voltmeter J3 pin12 (everything connected, machine ON) and should find about 10Volt pulsing.
If it is about 0 Volt, U1 is blown.

10 opto R1.jpg10 opto R1.jpg

try to find out why row1 is blown. Could be a short between lamp/coil...

#31 7 years ago

I am getting about 3v at J3p12. I cannot find anything which would cause a short on the playfield or cabinet. However, it is always the last place you look. The other thing is, the short wasn't because I was working on the pin. So I can't just go and retrace my steps as there aren't any.

#32 7 years ago

I think it is best to take the 10-opto-board out the machine and measure with multimeter set to 'diode'.
U1-13 and U3-14 with black pen and keep red pen on GND:

10-opto U1 U3.jpg10-opto U1 U3.jpg

Both should be around 600mV

#33 7 years ago

ZAZA, please accept this as a "helpful hint" - I certainly appreciate your excellent drawings and fantastic knowledge of the electronics involved and I'm sure many others do as well - that is not in doubt for a second.

We call the 'pens' as you call them, PROBES, when they are used with a meter.

I only mention it because I usually have to read your posts twice before I realise what you mean.

Keep up the good work!!!

#34 7 years ago

: ) Thank you Mike,

I thought both were used to name the things at the end of the red and black leads. I'm still learning every day....and forgetting the double. From now on I will call it probes.

#35 7 years ago
Quoted from SealClubber:

The switch is activating fine by the mechanism and is showing continuity when not activated so I guess it is a Normally closed?

Wait. It's normally closed? That doesn't sound right. According to the Switch Matrix it should be open?

Shadow Matrix (resized).jpgShadow Matrix (resized).jpg

#36 7 years ago

Do U18 pins 13,14,1,2 and U19 pins 13,14,1,2 all have the same voltage?

#37 7 years ago

And do U20 pins 18,17,16,15,14,13,12,11 all have the same voltage?

#38 7 years ago

Zaza, U1p13 gives -.676 and U3p14 gives -.710

#39 7 years ago

Catch - The switch is normally open, when it closes it works. At any rate, disconnecting the switch doesn't solve the problem, I still get the short error.
U18p13 - .076
14 - 3.48
1 - 3.96
2 - 3.96
U19p13 - 3.97
14 - 3.47
1 - 3.96
2 - 3.47
U20p11 thru 18 - all about 10.9

#40 7 years ago

ok, something is pulling U18p13 down from what's connected to the CPU-board
The 2 R1 outputs of both lm339 seem ok when powered OFF.

If you can put 12Volt (adapter) on the 10-optoboard when it is outside the machine, it is possible to test the R1 exits and see if they are 'high' or 'low'. All rows should be 'high' on J3 when only 12V power is supplied to J3-1 (GND) and J3-2 (+)

#41 7 years ago

Ok so to clarify it in my head, with power off and you measurure resistance across the switch you have an open(infinite resistance) and when you press the target brick wall drop down target it measures a short(0 to a couple of ohms). Is that correct? If it is, did you replace U1 and U3 on the opto board?

#42 7 years ago

Also, whenever replacing the lm339 I put a socket in. You could also see how the opto board works when you engage a different "working switch" to see how the output changes from 3v to a low.

#43 7 years ago

With the probes on the switch lugs. One on the diode leg, one on the leg with diode and white wire, I get .3ohms when open and then 45ohms when closed. If I put the probes on the center leg with green wire, and one on the wire &diode leg, I get about 1.9Million Ohms when open and about 1.7Millon ohms when closed.

Can I jumper the connector from the J3-1 and J3-2 to the pins? Otherwise, where can I grab 12v? I don't have a test fixture.

when you say all rows should be high on J3, what do you mean?

#44 7 years ago
Quoted from SealClubber:

With the probes on the switch lugs. One on the diode leg, one on the leg with diode and white wire, I get .3ohms when open and then 45ohms when closed. If I put the probes on the center leg with green wire, and one on the wire &diode leg, I get about 1.9Million Ohms when open and about 1.7Millon ohms when closed.

Sorry, I can't visualize this. Can you take a pic maybe? Also, you could use another switch as a comparison such as the "battle drop down" switch? Measure that the same way as the other switch. Do they measure the same way?

#45 7 years ago

The other similar switches give similar readings.

#46 7 years ago
Quoted from SealClubber:

Can I jumper the connector from the J3-1 and J3-2 to the pins? Otherwise, where can I grab 12v? I don't have a test fixture.
when you say all rows should be high on J3, what do you mean?

Let's skip this one, the exits are floating when not active and 'low' when active. It would take a setup with pull-up resistor to check it this way.

A final check for the 10-opto board is with only J3 connected in the machine and into testmenu T.1

#47 7 years ago

I think I had a similar problem to this in my shadow and it was one of transistors on the fliptronics board. I haven't read the posts in this thread so take this with a grain of salt.

#48 7 years ago

Hmmm, my last post didn't take? I tested the resistors and diodes on the opto board and they test ok. I guess I need to start tearing that playfield apart to find this damn short.

7 years later
#49 31 days ago

7 year ache .... did you get it fixed?

#50 30 days ago

Apparently as it has been working for a while. But I don't remember what fixed it.

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