(Topic ID: 353964)

1973 Pro Football Touchdown scores 3pts rather than 6.

By jeffreyalanhayes

34 days ago


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  • 20 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 days ago by BRONX
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#1 34 days ago

I have a Gotleib 1973 Pro Football Pinball that's got an intermittent issue with touchdown scoring. A touchdown is supposed to score 6 points (on the football score reel) and 6,000 points on the "High Score" reels. Instead it scores 3 pts and 3,000 points 95% of the time. Occassionally it will score 4 points and 3,000 on high score reel. There have been times when it "gets on a roll" and consistently scores properly: 6 points and 6,000 high score. It may properly score for a day or two but then reverts back to 3 points and 3,000 high score points. I'm an engineer and am pretty handy at fixing things. Per the schematics, the following two relays are involved in the touchdown scoring:
G - "6 point score relay"
H - " "BB" Relay Delay Relay"

And "Motor 1C" and "Motor 2B".
I've cleaned all the switches and have observed relay G and H do actuate when there is a touchdown (hard to see it's so fast but I've taken a cell phone video). My local EM pinball repair whiz is not responding to my calls. I'm hoping one of you pinball repair Xperts could advise me. I'd even be willing to compensate someone for helping me get it fixed. I have the schematic and have gotten pretty good at working on the machine in general. This is my last remaining issue. Thanks. Jeff

#2 33 days ago

Here are pictures of the schematic that appear to be related to the touchdown scoring.

IMG_0073 (resized).jpgIMG_0073 (resized).jpgIMG_0074 (resized).jpgIMG_0074 (resized).jpgIMG_0075 (resized).jpgIMG_0075 (resized).jpgIMG_0076 (resized).jpgIMG_0076 (resized).jpgIMG_0077 (resized).jpgIMG_0077 (resized).jpg
#3 33 days ago

HI Jeff, Welcome to pinside!!
Does the 6 Point Score (G) release early when this happens?

#4 33 days ago

Howard, How would I determine if it's "releasing early"? I could video it with my cell phone and playback (or attach it here) What should I be looking for?
jeff

#5 33 days ago
Quoted from jeffreyalanhayes:

I have a Gotleib 1973 Pro Football Pinball that's got an intermittent issue with touchdown scoring. A touchdown is supposed to score 6 points (on the football score reel) and 6,000 points on the "High Score" reels. Instead it scores 3 pts and 3,000 points 95% of the time. Occassionally it will score 4 points and 3,000 on high score reel. There have been times when it "gets on a roll" and consistently scores properly: 6 points and 6,000 high score. It may properly score for a day or two but then reverts back to 3 points and 3,000 high score points. I'm an engineer and am pretty handy at fixing things. Per the schematics, the following two relays are involved in the touchdown scoring:
G - "6 point score relay"
H - " "BB" Relay Delay Relay"
And "Motor 1C" and "Motor 2B".
I've cleaned all the switches and have observed relay G and H do actuate when there is a touchdown (hard to see it's so fast but I've taken a cell phone video). My local EM pinball repair whiz is not responding to my calls. I'm hoping one of you pinball repair Xperts could advise me. I'd even be willing to compensate someone for helping me get it fixed. I have the schematic and have gotten pretty good at working on the machine in general. This is my last remaining issue. Thanks. Jeff

Jeff,
Don’t bother your tech, grind through this Howard will get you there and you’ll be better for it!
Bert

#6 33 days ago
Quoted from jeffreyalanhayes:

Howard, How would I determine if it's "releasing early"? I could video it with my cell phone and playback (or attach it here) What should I be looking for?
jeff

Does it work differently when the points score correctly compared to when they don't?

#7 31 days ago

Howard, I appreciate the help. No, it just normally gives 3 points and 3,000 high score points. Sometimes it will give 4 points or 4,000 high score. It's just random. I had several days where it was giving the proper 6 points and 6,000 high score points and thought maybe it was going to do that long-term. Instead it one day reverted back to 3 points and 3,000 high score points. There must be a contact or relay "on the hairy edge" of timing or strength. I'm just trying to figure out which one to focus on. The schematic for the touchdown point scoring is a bit confusing to me.

#8 31 days ago

I'll get a video of the relays and motor when a touchdown occurs and post here. As a mechanical engineer, I'm very visual in my debug and problem determination efforts (did so for 33 years on Walmart POS). I'll get the video today.

#9 30 days ago
Quoted from jeffreyalanhayes:

I'm just trying to figure out which one to focus on. The schematic for the touchdown point scoring is a bit confusing to me.

There are 3 relays involved:
The 6 Point Score (G) relay
The G Relay Delay (BB) relay
The BB Relay Delay (H) relay

#10 28 days ago

Ok, I checked the gap (look ok) and cleaned the contacts on the H, G, and BB relays. Still getting the same result. It usually scores 3 points and 3,000 high score and sometimes 4 points. Here's the fun part. I was able to get good videos showing the 3 relays in operation when a touchdown is scored. I captured 2 regular speed videos and 2 slow-motion videos. Unfortunately attaching videos does not appear to be a supported function for this forum . The videos are in my dropbox and here's a link which should allow you to see them.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/rtjrpeh3h24gk762hpy2u/h?rlkey=a8bhp53j5ub4mkw8w2z5i7umy&dl=0

If you don't have dropbox, I could post them on youtube or some other video sharing site. BTW, it's interesting how the bells sound in slow motion.

Picture_of_H_G_BB_relays (resized).jpgPicture_of_H_G_BB_relays (resized).jpg
2 weeks later
#11 14 days ago

If it helps, I've uploaded two videos each for both normal speed and slow motion vidoes of the BB, G, and H relays during a touchdown (that scored 3 or 4 points - not 6). Here's the links on Youtube. Does it still look like it's the score motor contacts?





Thanks,
Jeff

#12 14 days ago

When that G-relay fires, there's a contact that will make the score motor turn. In the case for touch down score, the g relay firing will make the motor spin I believe a full turn and half which In theory on the score motor the contact responsible for firing 1000point relay will open and close 6times, each time scoring 1000points x 6. If I were you I would first look at 1000point relay, even though I believe the problem is a gap issue with on of the contacts perhaps being a bit to gappy. Because you are usually scoring 3 pulses, sometimes 4 pulses and on occasion the full 6 pulses. Anyways on 1000 point relay inspect wire gr-wh-red make sure it's clean could give a swipe with business card and its gapped nicely.

Secondly on score motor inspect the gap I can't see the first set of schematics(blurry) but trace g relay into score motor contact. On schematics it's near the top index 2-E. I'm assuming it's score motor bank#1
Please take another pics of upper schematics
Motor1a (bottom stack) or-wh-red see the gap clearance on this one, when the motor turns, the pulses come fast, check and make sure it's nicely gapped, clean contacts

I will be back online tomorrow afternoon ... Goodnight

#13 14 days ago

I made a typo, g relay when fired, makes the score motor spin. Looks like a full spin which creates 6 pulses. The leaf on score motor that is responsible for 6pulses is not making correct contact all 6 times. It's usually on motor bank#1. Evidence is you get mostly 3 pulses, at times 4, rarely the correct 6. There's a gap a bit to wide in my opinion on score motor, or dirty contact in score motor
I still like to see the upper schematics as mentioned previous post.
I would still check 1000point relay gr-wh-red wire and leaf gap, clean contact
Score motor gap on 1a(bottom stack) wire
Or-wh-red. Check leaf gap. Turn motor manually, very slow and see if the leafs open and close at every pulse. I like to trace on schematics G-relay at the top part of schematics, its blurry. Wherever it crosses into score motor, I like to inspect and see those leaf gaps and contacts

Goodnight.

If you have owners manual, it should have a description on every score motor stack and its function. Yours is score control stack most likely on score motor bank#1.

This is first game I have seen with "relay delay relays". I'm working on a Gottlieb big hit currently, same kind of concept I guess, I don't have relay delay relays.

#14 14 days ago

On big hit, score control as per your pro football schematics is similar on motor 1a(bottom) on big hit, there's 3 leaf contact point on section a.
and scoring being the middle of the 3 leafs Its a hard one to trouble shoot, being at the bottom. Hard to see or peak.

#15 14 days ago

Did you clean and gap (edit: adjust) the normally closed 2C switch on the score motor that holds in the BB relay? It looks like you are scoring the first 3 but missing the later points/score. That normally closed 2C switch holds in the BB relay when the H relay energizes.

Edit: I should have said "adjust" not "gap" a normally closed switch. It could be gapped when you manually advance the score motor so the switch is in its maximum open position. At the score motor resting positions this normally closed switch is closed!

#16 13 days ago

Here is 2C in the schematic.

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#17 13 days ago

Johnnybee and Bronx, Thank you for the information! I'll take a look at what you've advised and let you know what I find (and hopefully fix). Jeff

#18 12 days ago

Hopefully you get that sorted out. I'm having issues with big hit, I started a thread and hopefully someone leads me to the right path

#19 12 days ago

Some parts of the schematic are blurry.
Can you repost locations 2E-3E for G & H relays.
And 11E-13E for motor run switch letters and 6 score reel drum units.

#20 8 days ago

@jeffreyallanhayes
How did you end up making out with pro football?

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